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Comment by Cupertino95014 | Hacker News Reader

So, again, you prefer leaving these people alone, despite the police having a reasonable idea that they're carrying a weapon? You know, I suppose, that people carrying a gun walk and carry themselves in a distinctive way. Or people jumping subway turnstiles often have other warrants out agains them.

The fact is, the Giulani / Bratton reforms worked. But I guess you prefer more crime. Even if you're the one being mugged?

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> So, again, you prefer leaving these people alone, despite the police having a reasonable idea that they're carrying a weapon? You know, I suppose, that people carrying a gun walk and carry themselves in a distinctive way.

"The number of stops increased dramatically in 2008 to over half a million, 88% of which did not result in any fine or conviction, peaking in 2011 to 685,724 stops, again with 88% (603,437) resulting in no conviction. Leading to the remaining 82,287 resulting in convictions. On average, from 2002 to 2013, the percentage of individuals stopped without any convictions was 87.6%." [1]

Not terribly distinctive. They got it right less than 1/8th of the time. If that is your argument, that they were only stopping people they think had guns and were going to commit a violent crime, it's a terribly poor one. The vast majority of people were detained by the police with no cause other than looking a particular way.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_Cit...

So those stats (from a biased source!) are from 2008.

I guess that means you're happy with going back to the early days of Bratton's policing, then? By 2008 the battle was mostly won.

Assuming I believe your numbers (a stretch, but stay with me): do you have some other way of catching those 82,287 convictions? Or you just don't care?

The reason they were in minority neighborhoods is that that's where the crime is. And also where the crime victims are.

I care about catching guilty people, but I think we must protect the innocent from harassment as much as possible. I value liberty more than punishment.

Would you support this countrywide? Would you also support something like increased internet surveillance? A digital stop and frisk of every person, so we can catch all the digital bad guys? If so, why not? Because you might get caught up in it? I'm wondering where your line for these sorts of impositions is. It's easy to be for something if you don't expect to get caught in it.

I know that if I was mugged I might be more prone to accepting this sort of liberty loss, but that wouldn't be because I changed my ethical stance, it'd be because I was hurt and scared.

So you have to resort to hypotheticals to make your point. That sorta proves you've lost.

> I value liberty more than punishment

Putting your thumb on the scales and misstating the question. It's not about "punishment" -- it's safety. Yes, fear of punishment does dissuade some criminals from preying on victims.

And you've just admitted why NYC'ers broadly support stop-and-frisk: because they're "scared", too. As if that's something to be ashamed of.

As for "if you don't expect to get caught in it" -- you're right, I don't look like a mugger. You probably don't, either.

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