> "The President is not above the law."
What does that even mean if it's impossible to prosecute the President? What does that even mean?
What does that even mean if it's impossible to prosecute the President? What does that even mean?
If the president air strikes people and uses drone strikes using whatever system congress has said that makes that "okay" then he cannot be prosecuted for murder while authorizing and ultimately conducting drone strikes (in most circumstances).
However, if the president is having is own feud with some guy he doesn't like and finds a way to get him drone struck, that would not be covered by immunity because he wasn't acting as president in that capacity in any legally recognized way.
Why not? US presidents have murdered US citizens abroad with drones. All he needs to do is claim he did it under national security. SCOTUS explicitly calls out that the presidents motives are immaterial for determining immunity or not.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mitch-mcconnell-immunity-former...
(1) before today, there was no solid answer to what immunity a president may have
(2) it's unclear whether 'January 6' is an 'official' act (or even Trump's act at all, as he was not involved, denounced the rioters immediately, and called for a peaceful assembly)
'Immediately' as in many hours after violence started, and his own children begged him to do something?
That's because no president has committed any supposed crime of any importance.
Nixon probably did, but resigned anyway, and was then pardoned, so it doesn't really matter.
Clinton was a technicality, and never removed from office, and no one cares really. Lewinsky is a celebrity now.
Trump... well the first one was obviously political (many Presidents deny foreign aid, etc... it's part of foreign policy. Biden is famously on tape as admitting to doing the exact same thing) and the second one was on thin ice as Trump explicitly called for peace
"Using the powers of his high office, President Trump solicited the interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, in the 2020 United States Presidential election. He did so through a scheme or course of conduct that included soliciting the Government of Ukraine to publicly announce investigations that would benefit his reelection, harm the election prospects of a political opponent, and influence the 2020 United States Presidential election to his advantage. President Trump also sought to pressure the Government of Ukraine to take these steps by conditioning official United States Government acts of significant value to Ukraine on its public announcement of the investigations."
Like it or not, the allegations against Biden and his son have only become more substantiated over time.
Trump should not be punished for investigating.
I thought the USA was a country of laws, not kings.
* actually guaranteeing that if the president is trampling my rights and a supermajority of congress don't like it, he'll be ejected from office, not anything to do with my protection or restitution.
It is. The 'official' duties of presidents and the federal government are clearly laid out in the Constitution and subsequent laws. And moreover, the Presidents term expires at the end of four years, whether he believes it does or not. The concern-trolling over Jan 6 is something else. Even supposing the rioters had murderous intent and were going to hang people (they weren't... this was just a protest gone wrong)... trump would still cease to be president on January 20. No action needs to be taken to elect another one. The Presidency would fall to whomever is next in line and duly elected.
There is no way for a President to become a 'king'. The most years a President may serve is eight and at midnight on January 20 (or noon, I forget), no one listens to him anymore
> * actually guaranteeing that if the president is trampling my rights and a supermajority of congress don't like it, he'll be ejected from office, not anything to do with my protection or restitution.
Currently, the recourse you have if you believe the president is violating your rights is to file a civil action in a federal court. No action of congress is needed for you to do this. If your complaint is that SCOTUS, as the court of final appeal, may get your case wrong... indeed that is worrisome and indeed it's happened before, but if that's your complaint, then it has nothing to do with this case.
Your only recourse would be waiting until the President is out of office, then getting DoJ onboard to press criminal charges, with all the due process that entails. Fitzgerald explicitly provides no protection in the case of criminal litigation over and beyond that of an ordinary citizen for a former President.
Until today at least. God save us all.
EDIT: to clarify: Any president up until now, and from now going forward, has the power to command his generals to murder every senator, justice, and governor. Of course, American soldiers take an oath to the constitution, so hopefully this wouldn't happen, but he could. Moreover, anyone can 'just' murder all living politicians and declare themselves king. This is hardly a theoretical scenario to concern oneself over.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Aaron_Danielson_an...
Intimidating the court into ruling in your favor with guns to their heads is an official act until the court says it isn't official, but the court can't say it isn't offical, because they've got guns to their heads.
That this system fails to work when it's axioms are ignored (i.e. in the stated case of a coup) cannot be construed as a failure of common law or an indictment on its 950+ years of success. Such act would be a failure of the Executive solely.
The founder's stated intent for resolving such a situation is why we have the 2nd amendment.
Many disputes about presidential actions are about what the constitution allows.
The majority said In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives. Nor may courts deem an action unofficial merely because it allegedly violates a generally applicable law.[1]
[1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf
Since imprisoning the president would obviously intrude on the functions of the Executive branch, it really looks like the majority opinion is that no president may be prosecuted for any "official act".
> In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives. Such a “highly intrusive” inquiry would risk exposing even the most obvious instances of official conduct to judicial examination on the mere allegation of improper purpose. Fitzgerald, 457 U. S., at 756. Nor may courts deem an action unofficial merely because it allegedly violates a generally applicable law. Otherwise, Presidents would be subject to trial on “every allegation that an action was unlawful,” depriving immunity of its intended effect.
> unless the Government can show that applying a criminal prohibition to that act would pose no “dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.” Fitzgerald, 457 U. S., at 754. Pp. 12–15.
This seems to be the real boundary. To show something doesn't have immunity you either have to:
1. Show it was an unofficial act
2. Show it wasn't part of the core presidential powers and that prosecuting it wouldn't have any danger of intruding intruding on "the authority and functions of the Executive Branch."
I think that last standard is related to presidential immunity from subpoena which courts have also recently construed quite broadly
> Nor may courts deem an action unofficial merely because it allegedly violates a generally applicable law.
So now the president can clearly break the law, and he cannot be questioned about it if it even remotely looks like maybe it could have been an official act? Surely, the correct ruling wold be that anything illegal is intrinsically not an official act, otherwise we wind up where the institution of the government is not bound by its founding documents. The executive branch of the government is a rogue entity with nothing to restrain it, as long as the president remembers to use a pompous looking stamp. For *certainly you can never show it was an unofficial act if you are not allowed to investigate because it is presumed an official act subject to absolute immunity *.
Mark my words. The next republican president will shut down any and all attempts to even question him or view documents, by preempting the investigation using this as his argument. And shortly later they will, most likely, start disbarring and / or incarcerating anybody who attempts to investigate him for "frivolous" persecutions that impede the executive branch. This ruling is very calculated, since they know Biden will not abuse his powers because of it, but there is an almost unstoppable amount of latent power that will be immediately abused by the next president.
When it comes to it, this exact thing will be covered by immunity because of how things work.
Meaning, if the president shoots a random bystander on the street they can be charged with murder. If the president orders a military strike as part of an official operation and done through proper channels, they can't be charged if it later turns out the intel was bad or the strike went wrong in some way.
What if the President signs an Executive Order directing himself to shoot someone in the street?
Think of it like the police. An off duty cop is not acting under official powers. Even on duty, a cop is limited in what and how they are supposed to do their job and crossing outside those bounds technically makes them personally liable. I wouldn't begin to say we are any good at actually holding police accountable when they act outside their official duties, but that's a whole separate can of worms.
I read it and what is above is my understanding of how they attempted to parse the law, but I'm happy to be wrong if I missed something.
Or, if the President uses his powers to assassinate a governor -- again, explicitly not an official act, as the president has no authority over state elections.
If anyone bothered to read the constitution, it clearly lays out the sorts of things that could be construed as official, and the sorts of things that are not. The President does not have unlimited authority. His scope of authority is rather small, even if several important things fall under it. Part of the problem is the pervasive idea in American electoral politics that the president has some sort of power to 'promise' various laws and such. It's so silly since no President can possibly do that.
Not true, it depends on how he does it. If he hacks someone to death with a sword, that's not an official act, and it doesn't matter why he does it. But if he orders Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival, that is an official act. This example is specifically stated in the dissenting opinion.
One of the key things about a dissent, is that it's not the opinion of the court, but just that judge.
In general, one would hope Seal Team 6 would not follow such an act as they owe allegiance to our system of laws before any presidential order.
Can you find anything in the opinion of the court that would preclude it? I can't.
> In general, one would hope Seal Team 6 would not follow such an act as they owe allegiance to our system of laws before any presidential order.
It's a strange world we live in where a president can order something illegal but not face any consequences. I suppose you could argue we already lived in such a world, but now the difference is that he can brazenly do it.
We always lived in such a world. I know you might think the court did this to protect Trump, but realistically, the one who's more protected (since murder is a much worse crime than anything Trump's been accused of) is Obama, who ordered the murder of an American citizen by the American military.
I'm not sure what your standard of brazen is, but since he basically got not even a threat of impeachment for that, I'm going to go with that being much more brazen.
Not that I particularly care. Obama made the right call IMO.
EDIT: Here's an article in which the ACLU raises the same hypothetical concern you do (the president will now be able to kill whomever): https://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-drone-memo...
Ordering the assassination of an American citizen not caught in the act of doing something illegal is illegal and Obama should be prosecuted for that. But his justification was that it was for national security, and as you say, some people think that's a fine justification. If his justification were that he didn't like the cut of his jib, then you'd be against it I assume.
As things lie now, rationale and justification don't matter in determining whether something is prosecutable or not, and that's scary, to me at least.
EDIT: Also, did you see my question from an earlier post:
>> One of the key things about a dissent, is that it's not the opinion of the court, but just that judge.
> Can you find anything in the opinion of the court that would preclude it? I can't.
So this may surprise you but the government of the United States is naturally immune from any case where it kills you or harms you in any way.
Congress has consented to being liable because it thinks that's nice, but it withdraws consent whenever it wants. The entirety of the idea of 'suing' or 'prosecuting' the government is something that only happens with the governments consent and they regularly withdraw it if it's upsetting the them
* You cannot sue because the federal government and all state governments are immune from all civil suits naturally. Congress has consented to be sued because it thinks that that's a nice approach, but it can always choose to not be sued if it wanted to
6 members of the Supreme Court said Distinguishing the President’s official actions from his unofficial ones can be difficult.[1]
[1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf
If there weren't lawyers, law would be oh, so much simpler..
Technically, the murder is illegal, but the pardon is legal because it's 'part of his official duties'.
There are any number of ways this can be abused.
You are clutching pearls over something that is already allowed. Like I said, Congress can impeach a president who does this if they don't like it.
Moreover, a president can't pardon state level offenses anyway, and I would imagine the murder would have to take place in a state. The state could simply retry the case. States have much more discretion in the sorts of things they can criminalize.
Cleary, clearly this was a partisan decision. They can't just say "We Have a King Now", so they dressed up just enough of a reasonable interpretation to be able to kill this particular prosecution, while allowing themselves wiggle room to prosecute the kings they don't like. They aren't really trying to uncork executive abuse, they really hope it doesn't happen. But they want Trump not to be prosecuted, and put their fingers on the scale with what they hope is just enough pressure. We'll see.
On the one hand: if you are president and you authorize the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima to get Japan to surrender without further loss of American life, you won't later be prosecuted for war crimes when your political rival comes into power.
On the other hand, if you are president and you murder a Japanese person you see on the street when going for a stroll outside the white house, you can be prosecuted for that.
It's the same things cops do, jeez.
I understand your point and I'm not saying it's a great spot to land at, but I don't understand how the country's President can function if it were any other way. It's not just about Donald Trump, it's about 1 through 44 and 46 through whatever number we get to before this whole place burns down.
I mean, it's still really bad, but a few slivers less bad than you say :P
Like if you want to do a coup, as long as you task the army with removing congress it's an official act?