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Comment by randomcarbloke | Hacker News Reader

I'm contemplating a switch from the minimalist shoes I adopted not long after Born to Run was released.

Although I don't run as regularly or consistently as I used to, I suspect there are gains to be had from wearing a squishy carbon-plate 8-10mm drop shoe.

I'm on a stint of running at the moment, and wonder whether it's better to persist with my minimalist shoes until I (once again) reach a plateauing of gains, or do I switch now and benefit immediately?

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You should switch immediately. The underrated piece is how much friendlier squishy shoes are on your joints and muscles. I have pretty good form and modern shoes still decrease my recovery time by like 1/3 compared to minimal ones.

The next day, after the first marathon I'd run in Vaporflys, I said to my wife, "I don't think I ran hard enough." Oh, I ran hard enough, but super shoes really save the legs, such that you won't feel as beat up the next day.

And they do make me faster as an added benefit. :-)

noted, thank you, I'll heed your advice.

Your minimalist shoes aren't going to be faster in a race, but they are still good for you. I think the way to go is to run in many pairs of shoes. Super shoes for some fast workouts and races, normal shoes for long runs and tempo work, minimalist shoes good to keep your feet strong, Achilles long, etc. Some of the fastest runners I know run in zero drop shoes, but they also run in carbon shoes. There's no value in limiting yourself.

There are so many other reliably low-hanging fruit for most runners that jumping to supershoes is unlikely to make nearly as much of a difference.

Like you'll see much larger gains adding 10+ miles per week to your training volume.

The supershoes mainly benefit those who've maxed out their training volume and ability to recover, and are training for professional competition instead of health or recreation.

And strength training is still severely underutilized by most endurance-focused athletes. It also improves running economy while having a host of other benefits.

this is categorically untrue, it would've been true ten/fifteen years ago perhaps, supershoes absolutely make a difference to both performance and recovery, moreso if you're used to the relatively demanding minimalist shoes.

>Like you'll see much larger gains adding 10+ miles per week to your training volume.

me personally? I won't as I row 35/40km a week.

I'm not familiar enough with rowing volume to comment on that. And I'm not sure how running shoe selection impacts rowing . . . .

The overwhelming majority of runners are running less than 30 miles per week. Competitive amateurs might be doing 40-60. Most would see better than 4% improvements adding 10+ miles to their training volume.

This is definitely true. Distance/time running is the most effective lever you can pull to increase performance assuming your form isn’t completely messed up.

I used to run competitively in my teens. Now nearly 40 and getting back into it. Recently upped distance to 50 miles a week (mostly slow) from 20 and I’m suddenly doing sub 17min 5ks. Couldn’t get below 19 mins before upping mileage.

if you want to run faster run further - yes, but the conditioning this implies includes aerobic, psychological, technical, etc as being holistically improved.

if I add ten miles to my running it is purely mechanical conditioning, I'll see zero improvement in my physical strength, respiration, mental resilience...so I would expect very little added benefit...at least less than I'd probably see with more forgiving shoes.

Adding volume directly improves your cardiovascular physiology in ways that causally improve your performance and has been the bedrock of endurance training for decades across sports.

It's the most reliable way of improving performance to the point that increasing Zone 2 volume alone can drive huge performance improvements at sub-elite paces, much more than the 4% we're seeing from these shoes.

Adding ten miles will absolutely increase respiration and mental resilience, because every minute added taxes those faculties, and time on feet is a huge part of conditioning your lower legs to handle the volumes of really long distances. You can be cardiovascularly advanced but have trouble with longer distances without specific training, but training for marathons often improves your performance at every shorter aerobic distance.

If you want to improve physical strength, do strength training. Shoes won't do it for you.

Switch now, use them for your hard workouts (intervals, tempo, and the like), and racing. Don't use them for your plodding recovery runs, as they won't really work and you're wasting expensive shoes. Yes, you'll be faster, but as sibling says the real benefit is your legs don't get as trashed on hard runs.

They will last longer than advertised. yeah, I probably wouldn't race marathons in them much past 200 miles or so, but I've got some Vaporflys that I only use for workouts now, and they are approaching 400 mile, IIRC. I've done back-to-back comparisons with the worn pair and a practically new pair, and yes, they lose a fair bit of bounce after 200 miles. But they can still be used for workouts, and they still preserve the legs.

If your legs don’t get “trashed” is it because you are training them less?

That’s a solid question, but AFAIK it’s the cushion and energy return from that pricey foam that is the leg-saver. Training benefit remains the same for practical purposes.

My read on it is that it reduces the amount of engagement required by various muscles and particularly feet. It makes running a lower impact exercise, closer to cycling. This is great for training VO2 max but we mustn’t forget that one of great things about running is that it trains all sorts of small support muscles, particularly in feet and lower legs.

great advice to make them last with the added benefit of forcing good technique by using my flat shoes for recovery/steady-state.

As a fellow runner, it really depends on where you are currently at to answer questions like this.

I think of myself as a pretty good runner, but doubt these shoes would benefit me in a meaningful way at this point.

...doubt these shoes would benefit me in a meaningful way at this point.

You would probably be surprised. Can you race at 8:00/mile? Do you not heel strike like you're pounding fence posts? Then they'll probably work for you. I've run 50 mile races averaging around 9:00/mile in Vaporflys, and I still benefited greatly, if only because my legs weren't as trashed as they might have been in other shoes.

I watched a video recently where a reasonably good runner switched from minimalist to vaporflys and it was transformative, I think you're underestimating just how significant the advances in performance shoes have been (as the article points out).

I can assure you that many super shoes will make you noticeably faster. Try them on in the store, you'll know right away. That being said, some of them (Nike's especially) are really hard to run in. Almost zero heel support, and so you do have to be quite fast to make some of them work.

I have run in Endorphin Pro 3's and they are super super stable. I've work them for very slow ultras as well as fast workouts: excellent shoes all around.

It's all about running technique, not the shoes. If you switch to minimalist shoes, but continue with the same (wrong) technique then you'll have problems.

Big, padded shoes are for a specific (wrong) technique. "Barefoot" running technique doesn't need fancy shoes.

Big padded shoes are making the fastest long distance runners in the world faster.

It's all about running technique, not the shoes.

Nike, et al., spent millions of dollars demonstrating that this statement is untrue.

Big, padded shoes are for a specific (wrong) technique.

Demonstrably untrue, as TFA discusses at length. TFA isn’t talking about the Hokas that your grandmother wears to the grocery, these are race shoes. You going to go tell Kipchoge that his “technique” is all wrong, and he needs to switch to Vibram Five Fingers?

Can you describe the technique? Or provide a link to it? Thanks

I learned from a book called "Chi Running", there's similar book if you search for "barefoot running".

The book "Born to Run" is also educational about the natural running gait for humans, as we didn't wear special "performance" shoes for running until the 1960s.

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