Hacker News Reader

Comment by 3l3ktr4 | Hacker News Reader

I've been meditating pretty consistently for the last year 20 min meditations or more every day and though I've put way more than the time the OP put in trying to achieve jhanas I couldn't even reach the first one. I wonder what I'm missing!

View on HN

I went on a Jhourney retreat with about a year of daily practice under my belt. I didn't reach jhana, and was a bit discouraged after finding out that almost everyone else around me had! I think around 75% of those who attended based on my calculations. Including those with almost no background in meditation at all. But also some people who came to the retreat had already had access to these states. I do credit the retreat for reinvigorating my practice though, and reinforcing that jhana or no you should be aiming to be relaxed and joyful after most meditation sessions or you're probably doing it wrong.

If you're a beginner, you'll need to work your way up to at least 45-minute sessions. You're not going to be able to enter jhanas in 20 minutes unless you're very experienced and entered them consistently for a long time. For me, it was when I got to 1 hour sessions when I started to experience the deep absorption for jhanas.

I find that multiple sessions is the way to go. not necessarily longer. Like, dedicate 3 days to chill stuff (walking, cleaning...) and meditation. Meditate, say, 6 times a day for 20-30 minutes. That'll do it. Fasting helps too.

I'm in a similar boat. I wish it were possible to externally verify in some way. I'm a bit skeptical of how easily a lot of newcomers to meditation claim to have reached them.

Although I agree that a lot of people may be overblowing their experience, either by mistake, through ignorance, or else for clout/internet points, think about it this way: when the Buddha was alive, the jhanas were standard practice, and had been for as long as yogis could remember. The Buddhist teaching almost assumes a familiarity with the jhanas and doesn't really explicitly teach how to access them. The entire teaching is based on the Buddha learning the jhanas from various teachers of the time, mastering them, and eventually finding them unsatisfactory. Yogis who came to the Buddha seemed to already have an understanding and background with jhanas, which the Buddha then taught them to use to realise what he himself had realised. What this tells us is that jhanas aren't some kind of lofty, difficult to achieve thing that only a select few ever achieve; instead, it seems to suggest that it's something that's available to anyone with enough dedication and is something that transcends traditions or religions, and has been known about for millenia.

For me a game changer was reading: Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha

https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/

I moved from Transcendental Meditation (which I had learned previously) which doesn't quite get you into these states to concentration and insight according to this book and it got me there.

It took me much more time (~3 years) than the author here. I meditated following a book. And the what is described here as J7/J8 happened while meditating. But, J9 happened where I didn't expect it. My dad learned yoga from a guru, and he taught me some Pranayama to ease my breathing, as I have chronic cold often. That works, but I experienced J9 (here) while doing those Pranayama rather than Sati meditation. I didn't expect it or was "trying" anything, but it happened there.

The author sheds no light in their state of learning or lifestyle. If I had to venture a guess, I would think that they play significant role..

Following Buddhist eight fold path as much as you can, serving the needy, leading a mindful life, and knowing the basics of mythology, philosophy, etc. probably will help.

> The author sheds no light in their state of learning or lifestyle. If I had to venture a guess, I would think that they play significant role..

I think that's an excellent point, though the author sets up the article in a scientific way, describing the practice as mechanical - a lot of the ability to access these states comes from coming into it with a wholesome and cleaned up mind, which comes about through doing wholesome actions, saying wholesome things (and not lying), and generally the practice of "sense restraint" - not allowing unwholesome influences into your life. Otherwise, you sit down and your mind is a well of negative thoughts and feelings that completely cloud your ability to access jhana.

Of course, if you're the sort of person that behaves, speaks and thinks that way in general, you may not realise that that's one of the main things that allow you to access the jhanas.

Do it longer. 20 minutes is just a settling in period. The more you do it the better you get.

Physical exercise first can help one mentally calm down quicker.

Finally, studying others methods is helpful. The book "the six dharma gates to the sublime" was helpful for me personally for jhana practices, and there are lots of other great resources and teachers available if you look.

I spent two decades following this approach. I didnt know that I didnt know what meditating was until I did a 10 day silent Vipassana retreat. But even a decade into learning Vipassana I couldnt get the jhanas and took me two years pretty heavy practise for it to click.

some of us just take a lot of work to get there. monkey brains maybe.

I think this startup-y way of tapping into meditation i pretty silly but also, idk maybe it's the way for us nerds to achieve these things?

there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure. circumstances of course matter, but instruction, especially the interactivity is decisive.

yes, there's a practice element, to do the dissociative steps well, to get the right body sensations amplified with the right mental ones, etc.

the start-up-y way is not better or worse for you if it works. the traditional way(s) work vy constraining as much of the circumstances as possible, so the originating mind state is "exactly" as the one the instructor had.

I think the startuppy way might be a little worse, in terms of how it can set up more craving and comparison with others, particularly if you're convinced you need to experience the full Visuddhimagga jhanas to get the really real insight practice going, and others are ahead of you somehow.

I've experienced both the Sutta jhanas (in a TWIM retreat) and the VM jhanas (spontaneously after a lot of practice). They're wonderful and the VM jhanas in particular really boost sensory clarity and concentration which is certainly helpful for insight practice, but a sustained practice or rather, sustained intention to practice well have been more helpful to me over the years.

> there's no real difference between you, me, and Mr. Gautama in mental structure.

This is just not true. There are athletes with sub 100ms reaction time. The average person is over twice of that. It only makes sense that there are meditative athletes whose abilities surpass those of the average guy.

The ancient meditation wizards of yore preferred to recruit those with "habitual one-pointed attention" (these days we call them aspergers etc). Because they are uncommonly good at concentration.

lol, aspergers et al, are the opposite to good at concentrating.

it's not that simple. (neither meditation nor Aspergers [high-functioning autism].)

there are at least a hundred[0] traditional techniques for meditation. one needs to find those that work. for someone with a highly monotropic autistic trait techniques that work with a singular focus are probably more well-suited, while someone with "kind of the opposite" (hello ADHD people) should try those that are more cognitively active, have mindfulness elements, and build rich imaginary worlds.

[0] 112 in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vij%C3%B1%C4%81na_Bhairava_Tan...

Yeah monotropic. That's what I'm talking about.

That is incorrect.

In your analogy, we are all capable of running (probably), even if some of us are better at it.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com