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Comment by andrewshadura | Hacker News Reader

Somehow this is not a big deal across the Channel in the Netherlands. Yet another case of the British not learning from the Dutch?

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Probably because the Netherlands doesn’t have as much rain, off road and mountains as Wales?

From the article.

> The problem appears to mainly affect those riding mountain bikes in all weathers, particularly in Wales and the UK’s other wettest areas, because they are not sealed properly against water ingress.

My uncle ran a bike shop, the amount of bikes that came in with broken displays cus of water damage is high. Usually it’s warranty.

Maybe the UK has the wrong kind of rain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_wrong_type_of_snow

Do the same bikes magically not fail and have cheaper replacement motors in the fabled Dutch paradise?

Well for instance I don't see why an electrical motor would fail on a well designed bike.

Who knows about "the same bikes", but yes in general the e-bikes we have over here are quite reliable.

As someone living in London and travelling to The Netherlands on a regular basis (intending to migrate), I have to say, pretty much everything from public transport to supermarket design seems of a much, much higher standard than its British equivalent.

Further to that, it generally feels as though the UK is a country massively in decline and this transcends down to the quality of goods which we pass as acceptable.

The bar of quality seems to have exponentially lowered over the past decade and the effects of such are now rearing their head in our day to day life.

I was born in England, live in London, have a Dutch partner, and also travel to the Netherlands often enough. I agree completely. They have their problems too (from the political to having to tap out on buses), but the overall level of quality and care seems rather higher. The sense of decline and disengagement is strong too. Difficult to say much objective about that (though keep an eye on the turnout in the upcoming general election), but I see it from all political persuasions.

Yeah I agree that it is hard to be entirely objective on something as subjective as sense of decline — lord knows I’ve spoken to Dutch natives whom hold an opinion that the country is ‘not what it used to be’. I do get a feel that people, generally, seem less embroiled in a race to the bottom than we do in the UK.

It feels that people in UK have been ground down to a point of ‘ah well, it’s all f*cked and always will be now’ and, as such, people accept things like a £5k bicycle failing multiple times within 2 years.

Why is tapping out on the bus a bad thing? It means you can pay for distance traveled instead of a flat fee.

It was sort of a joke, I’m mostly just not used to it - but also apparently it’s a pain if you forget to do it.

You have to log into a website and enter your point of exit. That way whatever was subtracted form your credit can be returned to you.

It’s the same for train travel. It is an honor system because there is no way to check if that really was your exit or not.

In London it is a slight benefit to poor people with lots of time, as you can travel a long way (sometimes) on a single bus.

But the Netherlands has a country-wide system (unlike Britain) so it has this compromise of tapping out.

> Further to that, it generally feels as though the UK is a country massively in decline

To a large extent it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. People expect decline so it happens. It has been happening for a long time - back to the 1960s or so when the UK became the only only country ever (still true) to have a space launch capability and lose it.

That said, IMO the causes of this are widespread across the west. It is evident in the US, and the drift away from competitive free markets, the rise of culture war politics, short termism is business and politics, naivety about the rest of the world (disastrously reflected in foreign policy - Russia being the obvious example) and so on seem to be spreading.

> drift away from competitive free markets, the rise of culture war politics, short termism is business and politics, naivety about the rest of the world (disastrously reflected in foreign policy - Russia being the obvious example) and so on seem to be spreading.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here. Especially the naivety about the rest of the world. As someone whom travels to India regularly (my family are there) I have to say, people have no clue about the rate of change happening over there.

In an extremely short space of time (I want to say at most a couple years) I’ve seen what used to be an all day journey from Delhi to Meerut be cut down to a couple hour bus trip through the building of the Delhi - Meerut expressway.

I’ve seen the Delhi metro continue to expand its reach and new expressways begging building (in our home city of Batala a new motorway was recently started to take us to Delhi directly)

Meanwhile the M25 continues to be a massive pothole with indefinite road works that never seem to complete

There is even more than that.

The west (admittedly this not only a flaw of the west) tends to think its cultural norms, identities and values are human universals.

There is also a tendency to think that the golden age of peace and prosperity the west enjoyed after the end of the cold war is the rather than the exception - it even lead to silly ideas like "the end of history".

Are you blaming our decline on negative attitudes?

What does that have to do with German-developed and Hungarian-made electric motors breaking down in the UK?

The Dutch trains (the rolling stock) are a joke for such a rich country but I love everything else about the Dutch railway

And yes overall everything in the NL seems better quality

It's not the same bikes, that's the point.

How come? Article doesn't seem to mention that. That Cube bike for 5k ain't British producer, manufacturer is german.

Cube is not a very popular brand of ebikes in the Netherlands as far as I'm aware. Definitely not for city bicycles. Gazelle, Batavus, Cortina, Vogue, Azor, but Cube? Not so much.

The article says many other brands have the same problem though.

The bike brand doesn't really matter, the brand of the electrical motor system matters. There are 3 big leaders: Bosch and Shimano on the high end, Bafang on the low end with Brose, Yamaha and a handful of other smaller brands occupying a much smaller fraction of the market.

Bosch is also widely used in the Netherlands.

It does matter since different brands may offer different levels of weather protection. Typically only Dutch bicycle makers care about things like proper mudguards and chain guards, for example. And some, like Azor go crazy and test their parts in a rust chamber.

And, for example, the Cube bicycle as depicted in the article, is clearly not designed to be used in rainy weather. Who knows what else shortcuts they took?

> Typically only Dutch bicycle makers care about things like proper mudguards and chain guards, for example.

That is not true.

It is about class of bikes, not brands. Sure there are brands such as Gazelle who focus pretty much on those characteristics only but there are other brands doing the same all over the world alongside more racy models.

> And, for example, the Cube bicycle as depicted in the article, is clearly not designed to be used in rainy weather

The bike depicted is a mountain bike, so no it hasn't be designed with fender in mind but that doesn't mean Cube or any other non-dutch brand doesn't produce city/trekking/touring bikes.

Having said that, I would expect a mountain bike to be built to survive wet and muddy conditions.

Not sure what you mean, I think it is more about buyer culture than what class of bicycle it is. So saying "Dutch" might be a good short cut.

I would say shop culture as well as buyer cultures. A lot of shops in non cycling friendly areas just only keep stock of high margin high end road bikes and MTBs. So it may very well be that the guy in the article photo didn't knew much about bike and was sold an e-MTB because that was what was available and it looked good and unlike those bikes used by grannies and only installed fenders as a second thoughts later when he came back from a commute totally soaked.

They do have a lot of nice trekking models with upright geometry, full mudguards, rack and lights that can be used as a city bike though. Just not so many models with step through frames, aka "Dutch" bicycles.

I don't mean "Dutch" but actually bicycles built for the Dutch market, mostly by Dutch companies. And that means, among other things, bicycles that are excessively robust to avoid regular trips to service, and are built to live outside in the unpredictable and rainy Dutch weather. Cube doesn't come close to even cheaper Dutch brands. Also Cube bicycles are a maintainability nightmare with a lot of incompatible and proprietary parts.

Different bike brands, but the same motor is very common in NL as well. Never heard a lot of failures and e-bikes are absolutely everywhere.

One factor may be that in most of the UK biking is done on the road mixed with cars which may have more oil, sooth or other things in the water that gets on the bike, compared to dedicated bike lanes in the Netherlands. A lot of those lanes here aren't just a part of the same road, they're a few meters away from the road.

Another factor may be that there is more of a longer term bike culture, so more people know about simple bike maintenance (spray the chain etc) or have a bike shop around the corner.

You may nog hear it a lot because it's mostly warranty issues and consumer protection is pretty good here so with most issues it'll be handled quickly and under warranty.

I've had pretty much my entire electric drive system replaced under warranty with my first electric bike (admittedly I rode a _lot_ of km with that one.) Then on the second it's been in the shop at least once a month for ~1.5 years. Sure it was all covered by warranty but the amount of hassle did make me reconsider and go back to a regular bike.

Well road condition can do a lot. Most of water that ingress into bike parts do not usually come from the rain directly but being sprayed by the wheels. So in theory well made/designed bike paths shouldn't induce as much dirty water spray as badly maintained roads full of puddles.

The Dutch benefit from nice flat terrain, so less need for power assistance.

But they have higher average wind speeds, and headwinds can slow you down as much as hills.

According to ChatGPT it's not that different:

> Comparison:

> United Kingdom: Average wind speeds range from 13 to 19 km/h (8 to 12 mph). > Netherlands: Average wind speeds range from 15 to 20 km/h (9 to 12 mph).

Is that true?

I'd expect the UK to have slightly higher average speeds, as it's nearer the Atlantic.

Searching "Europe wins speed map" suggests it's close, with the UK slightly higher.

The speed in a typical city might be higher in the Netherlands, as large cities in Britain have a more varied setting. I don't know.

> Yet another case of the British not learning from the Dutch?

This apparently affects Bosch motors. Bosch is a reputable company. Maybe they screwed up on these motors but I don't see how bikes used in the Netherlands, if they're using the same Bosch motors, wouldn't be affected. Especially seen the shitty all year weather we're all "enjoying" in our countries (UK / .nl / .be / .lu etc.). It's been, what, 8 months of rain nearly every day now?

I guess the bicycles are better designed?

The Netherlands does have a reputation for the best built/maintained roads in Europe. Maybe better drainage, fewer puddles and potholes? Plus flatter terrain, so less overall strain on the motor.

This. Road condition is the key. Most of the water you collect while riding, even with full length fenders, is dirty water sprayed by your and other users tires. The rain itself usually account for very little in comparison.

The article mentions "mountain bikes" several times, which implies the failing bikes aren't ridden on roads at all. The fenders shown on the picture are not the same ones to be used on the road. It's possible we're talking about two completely different types of cycling.

I'm willing to bet that most electric mountain bikes are ridden on roads.

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