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Part of this is just a reflection of the changing economy. Shop classes were funded when there was a demand in our economy for people who made things. Now that we've outsourced the making of things to China, there's no perceived need for learning how things are made anymore; they just get made, somewhere out of sight, and when they break we throw them away and buy new ones.

This is a strangely infantile way for a society to live. Part of the mystique grown-ups had to me when I was a kid was that grown-ups were the ones who knew how things worked -- I knew how to break my toys, but only grown-ups knew how to fix them. Growing up was the process of being initiated into these mysteries. That's less true today; now feels more like an age of adults striving to get back to the (blissful?) ignorance of childhood.

Of course, this feeling could just be an artifact of my being an adult now :-D

The US still makes plenty of things. They're just not made by humans.

But if you don't know how to weld, solder, hammer, or hot-glue something together yourself, how do you expect to teach a machine to?

When my dad was an engineer, engineers knew how to work the machines. Because a technical drawing isn't just an illustration, it's a set of instructions to someone on how to make that part. For example, the engineer was likely to know, through experience, what tolerances the machines in his shop are capable of, and adjust the tolerances specified on the drawing accordingly (or if the tolerances are bigger than what is required, say "we can't make that part with this equipment").

A few years ago, my dad mentored some college kids who were incredibly smart and eager to learn. But he complained that they had almost never touched a machine in their lives. They didn't know how to design the parts properly. He had to teach them.

>>A few years ago, my dad mentored some college kids who were incredibly smart and eager to learn. But he complained that they had almost never touched a machine in their lives. They didn't know how to design the parts properly. He had to teach them.

This happens because no matter what you learn and how much you know in general, that doesn't say anything about ability to deliver in practical areas of work in a small narrow fields.

You can learn everything general about programming. But pick up a new language and you will be hitting the manual very often even to do some very trivial tasks. Or you will like to read existing real world code in that language, to learn the idiomatic way of doing things.

When you spend time solving real world problems in any field using any tool. What you are basically doing is turning yourself into a 'human database' of problems and solutions to a wide variety of problems. And you get that only by practice and experience.

There are still applications where welding and making things on the spot from metal are important. Mining operations come to mind.

And, there are thousands of welders employed in many other industries - let us not forget that you can't sit around and stop production while you wait six months for the Chinese to make a replacement for a one-of-a-kind machine. On the street where I have my company (a niche-market hardware company), there are, I would take a guess at, at least 75 people employed primarily to do welding. The street is approximately 1 mile long. We also weld quite often - I wouldn't hire an employee whose answer to every question is "we can't do that process until I find someone to sell me the item I need to perform it." Why buy a $75 tool when I can make a functional one for $0.35 in materials and ten minutes of time?

My best-paid employees are those who can weld, drill, operate machines, and do all of the other things necessary to keep us in the business of making products - and also think creatively and logically.

Contrary to popular belief, China is not the manufacturing panacea - for most of us making small-market products (think a few hundred units a month), China is exorbitantly expensive. Most of my competitors either do their work in-house or out-source to other U.S. companies.

I couldn't agree with this more. What's more, I think you can take what you said about the manufacture of things and say it again about the manufacture of software. I don't mean outsourcing -- obviously, most software is still written in the US -- but rather that it is something modern users consume with infinite hygiene.

Gone are the days that you had to run things from the DOS prompt with the concomitant risk you might discover QBASIC. Or, on a Mac, the risk that you could run into Hyperstack.

So how much demand is there in todays workplace for historians, geographers and spellers - but they still manage to find time on the curriculum

There is plenty of demand for Geography graduates. From an IT perspective - understanding Geographic Information Systems (GIS) software is essential in many industries - land management, natural resource exploitation, environmental modeling, transportation planning etc.

A Geography degree usually involves a mixture of “hard” and “soft” science. While studying I did everything from climbing mountains to set off weather balloons to standing on a street corner interviewing people about their transportation behavior. I also spent far too long hacking away in Python and attended many classes that were essentially computer science/physics classes. Finding a job after graduation was not an issue at all and nearly everyone I graduated with walked into a well paying job that was often in an exotic location. Please don’t lump us in with historians! ;)

But did drawing ox-bow lakes really help you?

It's the attitude that we should stop shop class because nobody is going to work in metal bashing anymore - and of course there is no way that exposure to engineering in school is going to lead to somebody being an aerospace engineer.

While any 'proper' subject is sacrosanct

My grandfather was a welder and had a workshop in the back of his house. He took pride in being able to build anything and not buy it from the store, if anything he owned ever broke he would hack it himself.

When I was a youngin, about 12, I used to watch him work for a few hours during the day then sneak back to the workshop in the middle of the night while everyone was sleeping. I would fire up the torch and start experimenting with all the scrap metals. Playing with a plasma torch at midnight with no supervision was probably very dangerous but it taught met the importance of being a builder in world of consumers.

I, too, was fortunate to have woodworking, mig welding, electronics soldering, combustion engine repair and a little aircraft building as a part of my middle-high school education. I enjoyed it a lot and I learned a lot of stuff that I would have not learned by reading books and taking exams.

But I guess American kids won't need any of that since everything is manufactured in China these days. You just need a lot of lawyers to keep the Chinese from stealing your intellectual property.

Manufactered in China, but designed and prototyped in the US. Which would you rather have your kids doing?

Exactly. And to design and prototype something, you need engineers who understand the tools and materials. You can't design a stamped metal part for a Chinese factory if you never learned about stamping metal.

How long do you think the situation is sustainable?

I'd prefer my kids be proficient with power tools, computers and pen & paper, all of them are necessary.

I completely agree. I would say that the situation is sustainable if we are careful not to lose the whatever advantage we have and if we invest in finding new ones but also very tenuous given the global nature of our world today and the nature of the competition that is arising.

In case I misunderstood, I agree that losing the classes you mention could very well mean losing our edge in design and invention but losing spec work to factories in China is not a very good argument to keep those classes.

Total and utter bollocks.

Millions of Chinese students have or will have done engineering and science at the degree level, that combined with the Chinese business acumen will almost certainly ensure them both designing and building the things we require in the future.

The USA will however have plenty of patent lawyers to ensure they are all sued if they try to get too clever.

The United States manufactures more than ever before. (Well, the recession probably drooped output a little bit.) China manufactures more stuff than ever, too, so they are a larger share of the world market.

FIRST Robotics was an amazing experience. Our sponsoring university basically let us have free reign of their machine shop and made us do all the work ourselves, They just offered assistance if asked. Some of my favorite memories of school. Likewise, when we built 6 foot tall working trebuches in Calc... that was also a blast.

I hope my future kids have these kinds of opportunities in school.

Reminds me of getting at least a small workshop in my house ASAP! Not the welding machines, I risk brning my house down myself, but at least a wood shop. Still remember the fun I had with my grandfather in his work shop (wood and later metal). Every kid should get that oppurtunity!

I live in a small cramped apartment, but I'd really like to do some wood works. So I bought some balsa wood and a few small tools to do some miniature models. It's not like doing real carpentry but will do until I get myself a shack to fit a band saw in.

Exactly. And since not everyone has the luxury of his private workshop, I really support that schools should provide that.

I'm only affraid that in a world where 8 year olds are still forbidden to use real sicorrs you're gonna have a rough ride in order to do so...

I also live in a small place, but I want my child to have the experience of building and using tools. Fortunately, just a couple blocks from my home is perhaps the most wonderful place I have ever been in my life. http://artisansasylum.com/?page_id=1336

I have read about other similar places in New York, and I'm certain there must be stuff like this in the Bay Area. So if you're lucky enough to have something like this nearby, take advantage. I'm not sure what the kid policy is, but I'm really hoping they have or will create children's classes.

http://www.techshop.ws/ - usually there are minimum age requirements for a lot of the machining classes but as far as I have seen very kid friendly.

http://randallmuseum.org/ - classes for kids through adults and they also have a woodshop.

We got a box of those kindergarten scissors in grad school!

Although there was a theoretical astrophysics group who probably shouldn't have been allowed crayons without careful supervision

Not sure where you live, but there might be a Makerspace nearby you can utilize.

Does anyone know of such places in the UK?