I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in to the empty house, changed the locks, and started occupying it.
I remember being shocked that someone could do this and be protected under the law. He had to follow a formal eviction process, even though they broke into his house and never had any agreement. The perpetrators were known to the police as professional squatters and they advised him on all the things to avoid doing so they wouldn’t countersue him, which was mind blowing.
Even weirder was to watch the reaction on his social media when he posted the story. A lot of people, including many of his friends, jumped to defending squatter’s rights or trying to make some broader point about inequality.
There’s something about squatting that appeals to people who think it’s always a RobinHood situation: Stealing from the rich, giving to the poor. It’s more fun to imagine these people as noble warriors against an unjust society, rather than seem them as people abusing the laws for personal gain at the expense of random victims. Even here on HN there are comments trying to downplay the issue by portraying the victims as mostly wealthy or landlords, which are presumably acceptable victims to people who like these kind of narratives.
I went on a group hike once and somehow ended up telling people that my house had been broken into. It was a bummer. Actual monetary damages about 10k, but so many little gifts and heirlooms that were irreplaceable. It's hard to express the sense of violation. They also stole some of my wife's underwear which was just gross.
Someone replied with "well maybe if they were paid a living wage they wouldn't have to steal". Because obviously stealing my wife's underwear is much like stealing a loaf of bread to survive ala les miserables.
It's like all nuance has been lost. Some people think that if you believe that the housing situation isn't great then you just have to be pro anything that calls itself a solution.
I hope they eventually figure out that's not necessary.
Personally I think it's because people have these standard narratives floating around in their mind, and pattern-match them reflexively even when it doesn't make sense.
For some people, the only lens they have is a 1-D spectrum of perceived societal power. Blame can only flow up the spectrum and victimhood can only flow downward.
As soon as anything violates this idea of how justice, blame, and victimhood should work, they jump in to defend the side they think should be the victim in their worldview. They inject unrelated or assumed narratives to try to load up the victimhood of the lower side (living wage) while trying to downplay any victimhood on the upper side of their 1-D worldview (insurance can pay for it, you have enough money to replace things). By rewriting the narrative with something new that they injected , their worldview is protected and they can continue to feel correct.
In the teacher example above, this has a sad side effect where the problem students now know they have advocates to protect them despite their bad behavior. Some of them are becoming very good at reaching out to those advocates to share a sob story and replace their narrative with one of being the victim on social media. It’s creating a scary environment when kids know that not only are there no consequences for bad behavior, they know they can find someone to help defend them for it.
We can blame the okupas, calling them lazy if that suits you. But we are missing half the story if we don't consider the other end of the spectrum: people buying property purely for speculative investment. For example, consider the housing crisis in Majorca [1].
Since we have enough money to buy a house, it's easy to blame the okupas. However, you should ask yourself: How much would housing prices need to increase before I can no longer afford a home? What would I do with my kids in that situation?
Justice should be defended with a veil of ignorance about your personal situation. It's easy to talk about what is fair regarding housing if you own two or three properties. Talk to people, and you will understand how lucky you may have been.
[1] https://www.dw.com/en/mallorca-property-boom-stirs-sellout-f...
I think you are completely missing one of the main origins of okupas in Spain: organized crime involved in extortion schemes.
I personally witnessed a case where individuals took over a store lot previously occupied by a restaurant. As the story goes, the restaurant operator tried to negotiate lowering rent to no success, followed by spending many months not paying rent until they were evicted. As yet another retaliation tactic, the restaurant operator managed to find a kind of service where he arranged for a lawyer team supporting a group of indigents to take over the store space, report it as their home address, and declare squatter's rights. The indigents were day in day out involved in disturbs, all sorts of vandalism, assaulting passer-bys and patrons in neighboring stores, etc. Nasty bunch, they were even caught on film shitting in a sandbox of a kids playground nearby for absolutely no reason. The police came in every single time, but every single time their lawyers were a moment's away. It took a couple of years of due process and multiple court cases exhausting with the lawyer team exploiting all possible legal recourses until the okupas were kicked out. The landlord had to hire a round-the-clock security because the exact same indigents, once kicked out, repeatedly tried to invade the same space.
2. Rental prices are up, and will be even higher, because landlords have no protection against quatters and default tenants. I have suffered the problem myself: I put out for rent the apartment were I used to live until a few years ago and the tenants only paid for the first month. Then it took me 18 months to kick them out. That apartment will not for rent until the law changes. There's MILLIONS of apartments in Spain like that. Protecting the landlords (eg kicking squatters and defaulters in 2 weeks instead of 2 years) would make one million apartments available immediately, bringing prices down.
The housing law that the current government passed wasn’t very clever…
It's very much not in evidence that this is affecting supply more than demand.
The clear answer is you'd buy one if you know how to handle squatters. In other words, you are well connected and have enough capital to take preventive measures described in the article.
In other words, rich can get richer by having lengthy security apparatus to protect their property. Middle class investors, who might want to buy an extra house to have a stream of income from rents gets that ladder pulled away from them.
One might believe that renting itself should not exist and making money from housing is immoral. If so, let's pull that ladder away from everyone including the rich (though that won't end well since not everyone can be a homeowner).
The clear answer is you'd build one when you know how to handle squatters.
> If so, let's pull that ladder away from everyone including the rich
Yes!
> not everyone can be a homeowner
Why?
> Why?
Criminals who were behind the bars for 20 years, just came out and have nothing to buy a house with.
Families moving to another city for 1-2 years because one of the parents found a lucrative job assignment (I literally have some extended family members in this situation).
People who declared bankruptcy recently and cannot have any assets in their name by definition.
Grad students who are in a university town only for 1-2 years (I was one and I know dozens of my classmates who were in the similar situation).
and on and on. Society is just too complex to make everyone a homeowner. Lot of people need to rent.
Criminals who were behind bars for 20 years, just came out and have nothing to pay rent with either. This isn't logic.
We shouldn't be releasing people from prison with no way to house themselves because that's practically guaranteed to push them back into crime. Solutions to that unavoidably involve giving them housing in some way: if your solution gives them rent, all your solution does is add landlords as middlemen and ensure that criminals never become homeowners. Giving them housing that they can work to buy is a much better solution.
> Families moving to another city for 1-2 years because one of the parents found a lucrative job assignment (I literally have some extended family members in this situation).
Why can't they buy a house for 1-2 years? Why are you assuming that housing liquidity would remain just as bad as it is now, when rentals and speculation removing liquidity from the market?
> People who declared bankruptcy recently and cannot have any assets in their name by definition.
That's... not how bankruptcy works. Many bankruptcies do not result in homeowners losing their residences, because that's obviously bad, so there are options to not do that. You may not be able to buy a new one... but maybe that should change, i.e. if you're selling your house to buy a newer one, that should be allowed, even encouraged if you're downsizing.
> Grad students who are in a university town only for 1-2 years (I was one and I know dozens of my classmates who were in the similar situation).
See previous.
> and on and on. Society is just too complex to make everyone a homeowner. Lot of people need to rent.
Well, right now your examples just sound like lots of people are forced to rent by current systems which are designed to maintain rental properties as investments.
The housing problem is an issue of supply and demand. Currently demand is bigger than supply and that leads to problems, no matter what you do. Either renting prices go up until many people can't afford to rent anymore, or if some law is put into place such as restricting rents or reducing owners' rights, supply will become even smaller and demand even bigger.
To solve the housing crisis the government has to either decrease demand or increase supply, or both.
The whole thing is complicated by being geographically unequal: for example I think even Spain is full of affordable houses, only they are not in Madrid or Barcelona or Valencia, which is where people really want to live. So if you have a second house in an unpopular town you actually have not much - thus you are not rich - and you have often an empty house (nobody wants to rent/buy it) which is an easy target for squatters, and therefore you will become "one of the poor people ruined by squatters", while othen you are somebody who accepted the narrative that using houses as investment was a good idea, both an investment house cheaply in a town that never attracted enough people, thus "lost the game" and is now also losing the house to squatters...
As an example, we bought our house for $280k in Iowa seven years ago. It held steady for a bit, but jumped up to close to $400k shortly after Covid. YIMBY policies in my area could cost me as much as $120k of wealth that I now possess. What percentage of home owners are going to willingly give up tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in wealth to support more equitable housing? Even for a liberal, $120k is a hell of a lot of money and it's only growing year after year under our current system. With that equity continuing to grow, maybe I have some hope of retiring in the future? That's a hell of a lot to put on an individual to ask them to support more equitable housing. Other people's suffering is their only chance to not suffer constantly until they die. And when you think in terms of not just my suffering but my family suffering, it becomes a lot easier to slip into NIMBYism.
How do you decouple primary housing from investment without fucking over literally millions of homeowners who have done the best they can under the existing rules? It's something I'm personally interested in. But I also don't want to be working until the day I die. What is the compromise that satisfies the majority of people?
So the speculators set up a company, buy the property and list it on AirBnB at several times the market price. Now it's not an empty property, it's a business. Business is slow so they only have to bother with guests during spikes in demend.
Letting people get rich off holding people's basic needs for ransom is never going to be part of the solution to homelessness.
Yes the situation is bad but nothing justifies squatting. And the okupas have been an issue for decades now, way before Airbnb existed.
I disagree. Two wrongs don’t make a right. You don’t have to put different people’s situations on to a spectrum and allow only one of them to be wrong and therefore anything the other person does is right.
It’s also disingenuous to pretend like all of the okupas are from desperate people who have no other choice, when there’s plenty of evidence that the okupas is being abused for extortion, crime, or just for fun.
No, not really. Theft is not the answer.
Consider laws restricting how many houses a person can own, or maybe an increasing property tax on each unit. These are good solutions.
Condoning theft has no other side to the story, it's always wrong.
So they set up a company and buy the property using the company. Pressure is always the answer, whichever tactics are used.
I understand the issue in Mallorca after visiting Mabella. Also the locals don't have to live on a holiday island, but they can elect pressure the speculators and their clients. Somehow this doesn't happen in Greece.
I'm sure smarter people than me here can come up with a good number of examples where you would agree that "condoning theft" is a good thing. Such ethical problems are never black and white.
Won't somebody please think of the investors? /s
Not advocating for the burglary higher up the thread, still a shit thing to do so someone
Yet it was not fine.
That's because theft is a violation of universal moral laws. Everyone knows it is wrong. Justifying it is an immoral barbarism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam
The concept of property rights is a bit more fluid than you think.
It's not quite morally universal that a right to unlimited property exists.
Your 'but indigenous peoples' reeks of point scoring behavior. If you wanted to explore that topic you'd be more specific. If you were engaging in good faith you might assume that I'm generally opposed to genocide. Taking an abstract point about theft and property laws to accuse me of endorsing genocide ('immoral barbarism') is not good behavior.
I didn't pick indigenous land theft to score points, but only because it's the most obvious example of some type of unregulated theft still being universally recognizable as wrong - and it's frequently brought up by many of the same people who make the case that other types of theft are in the service of justice.
Well HN's favored solution seems to be not caring that people are homeless until they start scaring rich people, at which point you lock them up in "mental health" institutions that are less about helping them and more about keeping them away from rich people.
My solution is not letting people own homes they don't live in, but that's going to crash a lot of rich people's investments, so we can't have that. Making sure the rich get richer is apparently more important than meeting citizens' basic needs.
So frankly, theft is the best answer currently available. I'd prefer they stole from the people actually causing the problem, the rich who buy up housing and make it unaffordable. But when they don't, maybe the middle class being stolen from shouldn't be so confused about why that's happening.
Ultimately I'm not sure why you don't have the same moral outrage about rich people buying up people's basic needs and holding them for ransom so they can get richer, as you do about poor people stealing to meet their basic needs.
If you actually want to protest the system this is what you should do.
Go occupy the vacant summer homes of rich politicians and CEOs.
For squatters, this isn't primarily a political issue, it's primarily a survival issue.
Squatting in the summer house of a CEO does solve your survival need for shelter, but it leaves a bunch of your other survival needs unmet because you're far away from, for example, grocery stores, and don't have the resources that the CEO has to have staff deliver and prepare your food. So I'd guess that's why squatters aren't targeting these properties.
The narrative that squatters are being disingenuous about their political beliefs because they squat the wrong homes is really just a tool to paint squatters as disingenuous political activists. The reality is that while squatters might hold political beliefs, few people would choose to squat if they had other housing options. It's not a secure housing situation. Most squatters are squatting out of necessity not political motivations.
The primary reason they won't target homes of the rich or well connected is because they can afford to be in areas with private security that will make any squatting attempts a complete non-starter.
Thus squatters can only harm the middle class homeowner who can't afford such protection measures.
Here in Seattle, time and time again, studies are done which show the majority of homeless, when offered shelter, turn it down and prefer to live on the streets. Which seems to completely contradict your claim that they would make use of housing options.
Maybe Seattle homeless are different than your homeless. I don't know why that'd be the case. The same people with the same political ideologies blame the cause of it on the same things, in both places, at least.
https://komonews.com/news/project-seattle/many-homeless-peop...
https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-city-council-wants-d...
https://www.seattlepi.com/homeless_in_seattle/article/A-lot-...
See for example:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_First https://thebetter.news/housing-first-finland-homelessness/
If the authorities really cared about the homeless, they would requisition empty dwellings and assign them individually so people have a proper home to rebuild their life.
What is it about this issue that makes so many people wish to treat landlords harshly?
> Here in Seattle, time and time again, studies are done which show the majority of homeless, when offered shelter, turn it down and prefer to live on the streets. Which seems to completely contradict your claim that they would make use of housing options.
Shelters aren't homes.
Can they store their things there and reasonably expect they won't be stolen? Can they have pets? Can they have privacy?
Would you stay in a homeless shelter? I mean, come on. The fact that anyone at all says yes to staying in these places shows just how bad staying on the streets is.
I think you're not realizing that "homeless" and "okupas" are completely separate problems, and "okupas" in Spain are typically criminal organizations dedicated to pulling extortion schemes.
I'm talking about lawyer-types riding in BMWs which get a hold of indigents to invade a space, and proceed to demand "compensation" from property owners to "convince" said indigents to walk out.
This is not new or rare. It's a Spanish twist on the old protection rackets, and one which only exists because useful idiots convinced themselves that siding with organized crime networks is somehow benefiting society.
Regardless of who benefits from Lawlessness, it always ends up destroying the society
True! When laws are made that benefit a few and harm everyone else, you'd be a sucker to follow them.
> It's easy to be nobel and generous when you are not the one being taken advantage of.
It's easy to abide by the law when you are the one the law benefits.
> Regardless of who benefits from Lawlessness, it always ends up destroying the society
Maybe it's not that surprising that those excluded from housing by society are okay with destroying society that actively harms them.
Toddler logic is pretending you don't understand what I'm saying.
And to be clear: I own a home, and I'm not squatting. It's just I have a sense of basic empathy too.
> The energy spent colluding with organized crime to squat is probably better spent trying to get laws passed that support new housing construction if the problem is to be solved.
"Energy spent trying to not be homeless would be better spent... being homeless!"
Let me be abundantly clear: this is a political conversation for you, it's a survival need for them. Demanding that people remain homeless while they fight for justice by rules that are made by people like you who clearly neither understand nor care about homeless people is absurd.
I mean let's be serious, when do you think this will be solved? This problem has been going on for decades, and we cannot even get people like you to agree that the solution to homelessness is homes. People like you don't have solutions and you oppose every solution that would actually solve the problem. And people like you make the rules. So you can't be surprised when the people you're screwing over don't care about your rules.
I mean, supporting new housing construction is great, but how are you going to prevent investment capital from just snapping up all the new inventory and continuing to jack up the rent? Houses are sitting empty now, because it's profitable for them to be sitting empty. This isn't going to stop until we end landlords. But let me guess--you oppose that, too?
So yeah--we should implement a real solution to homelessness. But given we aren't going to any time soon, you can't be too surprised when people don't follow the your rules just because you make the same broken promise that if they just do things the right way solutions will surely come.
After skimming some of the comments here I'd even go so far as to say that it's the majority of the comments here.
wouldnt have happened to me
My mom's husband had rented his previous flat (to complement his pension) to two women. They were working, very "normal" persons, and the contract specified that no other person could live there. One of them started dating a man and, a year later, there were three, then four (a child) living there. Then the other woman left (the guy was violent) and then the mother and her child had to flee too.
So my mom's husband had a guy that he never had any agreement with, living in his property, not paying rent, and not paying utilities. Now the law forbids to cut the utilities so you have to pay utilities for him. I think at the time (five years ago) it was still possible to cut. But the guy didn't care. After a year and a hell in courts, the flat was free again but a complete mess, broken furniture, mountains of junk. To weeks were needed just to clean, then paint, fixing doors, plumbing, etc.
He sold it ASAP. Now, I don't wonder why there's so little housing for rent.
Does the law specifically say that breaking in is allowed by anyone except the legitimate owner?
what will happen is, police will come, you are in your house, some idiot claims to have legal right to the house, he cannot present SHIT, and at worst he will file some police report about you throwing him out, of which you might be fined.
That’s silly. You have scope out the place with your friends, and then wait till they leave for the weekend somewhere then break in and change the locks.
He might be hauled away if you manage to provoke him to hurt you, or cut your electricity, water. There is this idea that the squatters are all ignorant people. A lot are quite well educated on the legal aspects of the operation, have accomplices, and know exactly what to say and act when confronted.
It can take years and six figures to get a squatter out.
They asked what will they do, call the police? I suspect that's exactly what they would do.
im not saying to beat the squatter to a bloody pulp, im just saying, you go in, they are evicted, end of story
In California the courts hold squatters innocent until proven guilty through a lengthy legal process. Meanwhile you are charged for with no delay because it is illegal to beat someone even if they are squatting in your house.
I don't like it, but this is the situation when the law is on the squatters side.
what stops me from going outside a random house, call police, and have the residents hauled away saying EXACTLY what you just said?
and IF what you say is true, I would think that any squatter trying such a thing would be suicidal, because IF this is the outcome that would happen, perhaps residents might consider a slightly different solution
It’s just as ridiculous as it sounds. Unless they agree to leave, throwing them out will look like an assault. They’ll call the cops first and good luck going through a 3 year court process while the squatters live in and trash your place. And you better not turn the electricity or water off! They’ll complain as having have medical and sanitary needs and you put their lives in danger.
Turns out: the owner of the car had a friend who was a farmer. He came up with a tractor and ripped the garage door apart.
That was his definition of "nothing can be done".
If motherfuckers play dirty, play dirty with the motherfuckers.
Allow me to present a third option: maybe these people aren't noble warriors, they're just victims of an unjust society trying to meet their basic human need for housing. People like your friend are certainly unjustly harmed in this situation, but the people who don't even have their basic needs met are far more harmed.
Links?
> I’m sure Spain has public services that are much better than the US if the train network is any proxy for effective governance.
Maybe you should be less sure.
> There’s presumably training opportunities to upskill both formal and informal.
Just because something can be presumed does not mean one should presume it.
> All this to say the person who is squatting is probably not someone who lacks any other option but someone who is exploiting a condition and potentially tied to organized crime to boot.
Seems like what you think is probable isn't based in much evidence.
Was this the person's primary residence that they were planning to live in? Or a property that they intended to flip or rent out? Makes a big difference in how the courts would see it.
> Even here on HN there are comments trying to downplay the issue by portraying the victims as mostly wealthy or landlords, which are presumably acceptable victims to people who like these kind of narratives.
I mean, if you can afford to purchase more than one property in order to gain financially from that second purchase, you are wealthy by most standards in this country.
Are you implying that there is something morally wrong about purchasing a rundown (apparently barely liveable) property, renovating it and selling or renting it? How do you expect the supply of housing to increase (and prices to go down in turn) if you disincentive such behaviour? Seems rather absurd...
There is a legal difference between "occupying" someone's primary residence, and occupying other types of properties. The first isn't considered "occupying" here but rather "breaking and entering", and the local police are very quick at acting on those types of crimes, especially if the criminals are still inside the property.
And do not try to argue that breaking, entering, and squatting somehow reduces the housing shortage — the effect is the exact opposite. With insecure property access and rights, people will be LESS likely to invest in fixing up unliveable places. Just think for a second: with solid property rights, it can be an enjoyable practice to invest in and improve a run-down property to a rent-able or sell-able state. But if you are 50% likely to lose your investment and get a massive headache, you'll just go do something else, and let it rot, so no one can use it. Multiply this 100k times, and you have 100k fewer units on the market, just falling into dust.
The scenario you describe only exists because the number of "investors" buying up properties to flip and turn a profit vastly outnumbers the number people looking to buy their personal residence, and have the skills and disposition to fix it up themselves.
And judging by the build quality of a lot of flipped properties, the investors don't have the skills or disposition either.
I think we agree that the PE crowd can rot in hell — they're buying properties to standardize, corner the market, and charge extractive artificially-inflated 'market' rents. They won't be idle long, and I don't think squatting is the fix for that.
I'm quite sure that the PE companies are the primary driver here, not small-time fix-and-flip investors. PE firms are taking the houses off the market for good.
The small-time fix-&-flip people take houses off the market for only a short time, and upgrade the property. If they take too long, they WILL lose money, which is also why even if squatters do zero damage (never heard of it happening), the mere delay can cause it to be unprofitable.
Getting PE out of the market WILL reduce the competition and bring down prices. The same is not true for small time fix-&-flip investors.
The small-time fixer-flippers are taking a risk. Their properties may or may not increase in value at all, even with improvements. The goal is to add value greater than the cost of the improvements. From the people I know who have done it, this is mostly accomplished by sweat equity, i.e., they do a lot of the work themselves, hiring trades only where necessary, as if it is all full-price trade work, it will NOT be profitable. If you think that individual enterprising people adding value, including bringing non-viable housing stock back to market viability —AT THEIR OWN RISK— is somehow bad, we should make a regulatory or tax policy against it. Making random people subject to arbitrary effective confiscation at the whims of random squatters is not fair to anyone.
Same for vacation homes. If you think it bad policy that they exist, then enact new tax or regulatory schemes.
Making random people subject to random confiscation and expense will not get the results you want. It will get people even more strongly motivated to be angry at squatters.
But its worth understanding why it happens, and a major factor is that home costs, to buy or rent, are out of control, which lowers the perceived ethical barrier to doing so.
There will always be that weird self-interested-self-described-"anarchist" who has convinced themselves that "property is oppression" because they don't want to pay for stuff. I'm not proposing anything to address that guy. I'm saying we should do what we can to prevent people from agreeing with that guy in the first place.
And one of the ways to dissuade people from agreeing with the professional squatter is by discouraging the PE-driven fix-and-flip (which is distinct from the small-time fix-and-flip, but only early in the development of that business. Eventually, you're successful enough that it makes more sense to buy cheap, in cash and without financing, hire others to fix at your leisure, and rent. That's the transition from labor-class to capital-holding class).
Unless you are going to setup surveillance and track every footprint, there is a LOT of process before the hammers start swinging.
I owned a house that was "vacant and unused" for many months before I could sell it. I moved in with my wife-to-be, and it turned out to be right at the housing market crash. Sale fell through, zero interest for months, so we took it off the market and invested in some upgrades. There were many months where there was zero activity, except for intermittently mowing the lawn or clearing the snow. Eventually, we made some upgrades, put it back on the market and sold it.
Had someone squatted in that house, especially with the typical trashing of the place, we would have lost both houses and been affected for decades.
Yet you are saying this would be OK for someone to just move in because we're having a hard time getting it sold? Seriously? (if so, my response to your lack of knowledge about how things actually work and your lack of ethics is unprintable in polite society)
My prior point was about emotionally manipulative language, which is what I see on display here with you trying to hold me accountable for a hypothetical. Please do not do that, it is very frustrating, I don't ask you why you beat your wife so don't ask me to justify squatting as morally acceptable.
Or, to put it another way, I'm literally saying that we shouldn't use the same language to describe home invasion (behavior that can get you lawfully killed in some places), to describe squatting, because it is emotionally and intellectually dishonest.
Someone's still paying for the house flipping. By definition the flipper makes a margin between what they paid, the repairs, and the price they get at the end.
So why should we encourage house flipping instead of having howners buy the damaged property and pay for a renovation company ? Housing wise the end result is the same, minus the flipping.
If your argument is that the buyer converted a 4 person house into a 20 doors appartment, that's a better proposition, but they're also in a much more protected position and won't be bogged down by squating laws.
Of course they are - even in the case of 'flipping', they are at least working to add value. Barring complete incompetence, the repaired and upgraded place is MORE valuable.
>>By definition the flipper makes a margin between what they paid, the repairs, and the price they get at the end.
NO; there is nothing 'by definition' about it. While investors all desire to make a profit, many actually lose money, either due to poor planning and/or execution of upgrades or just ill-timed market downturns. The RISK of loss is reason to justify a profit. Moreover, SQUATTERS ADD ANOTHER RISK that almost guarantees a loss — even if they do zero damage and somehow the costly eviction process is free, the loss of time itself costs money.
>>So why should we encourage house flipping instead of having howners buy the damaged property and pay for a renovation company ? Housing wise the end result is the same, minus the flipping.
YES, I agree, this would be better. However, the result is not necessarily the same. While many flippers have poor or overly trendy tastes so that their upgrades don't add value, individual homeowners are even more unskilled. Plus, people upgrading buildings for a first or second living bring advantages and economies of scale, including buying materials at trade and/or bulk prices vs retail prices, ability to employ workers more efficiently across multiple properties at once, etc. OTOH, the homeowners have the advantage of caring more because they'll live there.
But notice, BOTH of these are ONLY MADE WORSE option by squatters. An investor may take a loss on one of a bunch of properties due to a squatter. But a homeowner who buys a run-down home to upgrade and move into, can be bankrupted by a squatter. Now, you have two homeless families, no just one.
There is simply no justification for giving people the right to steal other's property just by breaking and entering.
If we want to make a process, perhaps akin to found valuables, whereby someone can claim a property, and the previous owner must show that s/he is actively working to upgrade it, I could support that.
I might even support some kind of people can move in, but must cause no damage and move out when caught; a kind of 'no harm — no foul' rule could be reasonable. But, just "gee that looks empty, let's move in, and we have rights greater than the owner!", is a hard NO.
You're arguing for having professional home renovators, that works the same if the house is flipped or not. So let's choose not.
> squatters
You're protected from squatters when it's your primary residency. You make it sound like you'd go buy some groceries and when you're back at home your house is occupied with no recourse. No.
It only becomes a legal quagmire when you're flipping properties, it was your winter vacation house, or you're actually spending your life in the Bahamas. Nobody's having issues while their house is actively renovated and they move in as soon as it's finished.
So, you are saying that people who do any of those things should be subject to arbitrary confiscation of their property or rights to it?
NO, that is absurd and obscene. Everyone who has a second property is not wealthy to the point where it doesn't matter. I know many people who have remote properties that they visit intermittently or seasonally, who struggled to earn and invest enough to make it possible and have spent decades working on and improving the property. In some cases, the value has increased greatly, and in others, it's still just a remote camp on a remote wild spot.
Under what ethical reasoning should they be deprived of their property? Particularly, that they should be deprived of it randomly and at the whim of squatters? (e.g., if society decides that no one should be allowed to own a second property, then we should pass laws to outlaw and/or tax them out of existence in an organized way; there's no justification for arbitrary taking)
EDIT, add: >>You're arguing for having professional home renovators,
No, this does not necessarily mean professionals, it means anyone doing it repeatedly or at scale, including a lot of semi-pros. Professionals and trades are often involved. And once you do it a few times (I know people who have done some), you do get economies, efficiencies, and knowledge that makes things both more economical and have better outcomes than the average homeowner/first-timer can do. I still don't see the argument against flipping a house (except for bad jobs, which homeowners can also do), and certainly none that says anyone should be subject to arbitrary confiscation by squatters
Ask the Spanish government ?
Otherwise most countries have adverse possession laws, the only difference being how drastic the requirements are. Spain just decided to lower the bar that much.
I'm not sure where the GP's situation took place but given the article is about Spain the person you're replying to could probably be forgiven for thinking it was there
It will certainly lead to LESS housing, not more.
Yikes
Its been said a couple times in sibling comments, but the problem comes down to the fact that people are buying houses as investments, and not as houses.
In most of Europe, the US and Canada, the cost of home ownership grossly exceeds the median income, to the extent that lending is almost always necessary. Thus owning a second home is always the realm of the wealthy, even if they are still ultimately laborers. Buying that second home is often the first step from the labor class to the capitol-holding class.
Its frustrating that the housing crisis is often described in terms of Marxist dialectic, but the crisis often feels lab-grown to illustrate the flaws of (literal) rent-seeking behavior by the capitol-holding class.
I guess you can fuck off to the sticks, but I'm not sure that works as a defense for a society that has made an element of participation contingent on absurd expense or debt. Does 'work hard' feel good when the thing you purchase with your labor is expensive in order to service the desires of the wealthy?
I'm not going to say our current setup is indentured servitude or serfdom, it clearly isn't and social mobility and changing your station are possible and even commonplace. I will say that our current system has resulted in a large class of people whose productive excess is routinely paid to a small group for the benefit of being allowed access to a residence (they don't provide other services or benefits, they don't actually labor to produce the house as a finished good).
What happens when its simply impossible to accrue via labor, in a single lifetime, enough wealth to buy that first home?
They expect people to build and maintain homes for them while doing nothing in return.
If you abolish property rights, your two options are state slavery or anarchy where the strong take whatever they can.
These misguided ideologies can only live parasitic ally on the fringe of a otherwise functional society. If they got their way, the society would be destroyed.
How is the current system not strong taking whatever they can? Private property is just a legitimized theft, because it leaves some people without access to land or natural resources that is required for survival.
It's not true that without private property you get state slavery or a strongman situation, you may check Zapatistas, they are rebels that created a stateless society of 300 000 in Chiapas, Mexico without private property with structure that is based on decentralized, horizontal, federated institutions.
Anarchism is not a misguided ideology, it's a product of highest levels of freethought that inspired many people to fight for liberation from oppression and for a world where every human can develop the the heights of one's potential.
There were breif periods where humans entered virgin land, but these people migrated because other land and resources were spoken for.
>Private property is just a legitimized theft, because it leaves some people without access to land or natural resources that is required for survival.
This is reverse reasoning. people lacking resources doesn't imply it was stolen from them. The alternative is that they simply didn't start with any.
Rights don't derive from wants or needs.
My wanting a pony does not give me a natural right to a pony. My hunger does not give me a natural right to food
>It's not true that without private property you get state slavery or a strongman situation, you may check Zapatistas
The zapititistas did not acquire all their land, people, and resources through free choice, nor were people free to stop collaborating if they chose.
I don't agree with you, there are books such as The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity that counter your rhetoric. Private property norms did not exist for most of human history.
> Even chimps will kill others for infringing on territory.
On the other hand Bonobo is not so territorial and is too one of the species that is the closest to us.
>This is reverse reasoning. people lacking resources doesn't imply it was stolen from them. The alternative is that they simply didn't start with any.
Why then some people usurp land and natural resources and not let others use them?
> Rights don't derive from wants or needs.
From what they derive? If you agree that there is no natural rights, then how do you justify private property rights?
> The zapititistas did not acquire all their land, people, and resources through free choice, nor were people free to stop collaborating if they chose.
Please share your sources for this statement.
Groups of humans have always organized for Mutual Aid, but it has never been unilateral or not subject to the approval of the group.
Norms around private property are different across time and depend on the level of abundance. At no point could a strange human come and take your possessions huts, or food without permission.
Re: The Dawn of Everything
You're saying you don't agree with him because of a book you read - but that book has legitimate historians making some pretty bold criticisms: "cherry-picked and selectively presented examples", "perilously close to scholarly malpractice."
There is some positive feedback as well, but in general, if a book claiming to be historical elicits this kind polarization, it's probably not something to base a strong belief on.
I'm also not quite sure why you would find it hard to agree with the notion that, throughout history, humans have been protective of their territory. The list of examples you could point to for this is unending.
> Why then some people usurp land and natural resources and not let others use them?
You're question here doesn't really do accomplish anything re: property somehow being theft. I would suggest that "the reason" some people aquire land and don't let others use it can simply be because they don't want to. Sometimes the answer is that it's not financially viable to share it. Sometimes the answer is that they fear the destruction of the land or resource if they just open it up to anyone. Any of these reasons is sufficient, because they don't actually need a reason.
> If you agree that there is no natural rights, then how do you justify private property rights?
To start, the other guy never claimed private property was a natural right. The rights we have emerged from people wanting to self organize for their mutual benefit. They needed to agree on some fundamental protections that enable an actual net benefit of their organized society, and giving people rights to own and protect their property is generally needed for people to feel confident that effort they put in to improve the land is effort they will be rewarded for. It's a nice idea that people will improve land for the good of humanity, but in reality, people are not motivated by that enough to overcome the people who would abuse that system by "free-loading". It should tell you something that private property + property rights have consistently emerged, whenever people have tried to put together a society.
> Please share your sources for this statement
I admittedly didn't know much about this, but on some cursory research, it seems pretty obvious to me that this was not an entirely "free choice" based movement..
"Rebels wore ski masks and used furniture and other office materials to barricade themselves inside of buildings once they had taken them over.[11] During the occupation of the city, rebels also painted pro-Zapatista statements on the walls of buildings.[12] While raiding San Cristóbal de las Casas, the Zapatistas released 230 predominantly Indigenous prisoners from jail and also demolished land records in protest"
And the source you're asking for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_uprising#Events
I like precise logical argumentation, that's not idealism, I don't make any unnecessary assumptions
> I'm also not quite sure why you would find it hard to agree with the notion that, throughout history, humans have been protective of their territory. The list of examples you could point to for this is unending.
Oh, that's very simple, for most of human history humans lived as hunter gatherers and they did not have private property or rent relations.
>To start, the other guy never claimed private property was a natural right. The rights we have emerged from people wanting to self organize for their mutual benefit.
No, there was an enclosure of commons that happened to exploit farmers as factory workers. Those rights were always about naturalizing oppressive human relations.
>It should tell you something that private property + property rights have consistently emerged, whenever people have tried to put together a society.
This is not true, many civilizations were against private property rights and private property rights were never universal, they are even not universal in this worlds, even if they exist in most places around the world.
>I admittedly didn't know much about this, but on some cursory research, it seems pretty obvious to me that this was not an entirely "free choice" based movement..
No one is coerced to join those rebels. And rebels are rebelling against unjust genocide of Indigenous Americans among others.
Only in places of complete abundance did people not make claims.
That's not quite how your comments elsewhere in this thread read lol
> This is not true, many civilizations were against private property rights and private property rights were never universal
Wanna name a couple of those civilizations that didn't have property rights that managed to thrive and grow beyond a population of like 10,000? If you're going to point towards something like Greenland or China where land is owned exclusively by the state and leased out.. that's the same thing as private property rights, the people who lease that land out have rights with respect to that land. Countries literally can not exist without property rights, and if you're gonna say "yea and countries shouldn't exist it's all just made up borders anyway, mann..." then you're username is incredibly fitting lmao
I also never said that these rights were universal, just that they show up. A lot. And if you want to claim that reason is because of some oppression, go for it. I happen to think this is wrong, and the fact that basically every time these rights are revoked things go to shit tells me that's because they exist for a reason. See
> No one is coerced to join those rebels.
Brother, they showed up with guns and took over buildings by force; they destroyed the land records for everyone, not just their specific "members" - if that's not coercion, what is? Please recognize that you may just be enamored with the ideals of what the group said on paper, and are therefore rationalizing their extremist actions that end up being counterproductive to any positive goals.
What is the vision for this scenario that doesn't just turn into new groups taking power and enforcing their rules?
Did you realize you just came up with the system you were opposing?
We can organize into some groups, let's call them countries, with an organized self-defense groups, we can call them police and military, to prevent our yurts from being stolen.
In those same times, anyone that wandered by who was stronger could simply kill them and take over the yurt, until someone stronger showed and killed them in turn.
Not a great way to live, and not a very long life.
1- https://growthlab.hks.harvard.edu/publications/why-chiapas-p...
Of course, the corrupt ruling bandits always enjoy a higher standard of living than their subjects. The same story in every anarchist and communist society.
You can still put up your yurt or hut in many places of the Earth, probably including Chiapas, but it seems that more people want to live in London, Munich, Tokio or Barcelona.
Show me a place with a stateless society and without private property that actually attracts nontrivial amounts of people. You speak of such places highly and reverently, but for all their highest level of freethought, they don't seem to compete well with traditional urban centers of the capitalist world.
When voting with their feet, people mostly move to wealthy countries that protect personal property, not away from them.
I'm pretty sure they're talking about real property. Land and improvements. Not the strong taking away everything you have.
And there are reasonable ways to manage land and housing other than private ownership. There's also the option of limiting it to personal use.
An individual has to be very careful not to create any real property value or improvements, otherwise it will be taken from you.
Conceptually there are lots of solutions to managing this problem. Historically, they rely on a state institution that goes around stripping people of what they create, forcing people to create things they don't own.
Communism almost always devolves into totalitarianism for this reason.
This is the experience of the vast majority of renters. It's not too bad.
And something like "you can own X amount of house" doesn't require going anywhere near communism.
I think it is terrible. I like to be productive and crate value. Absolutely miserable without it. I hated being a renter for this reason.
>And something like "you can own X amount of house" doesn't require going anywhere near communism.
There are so many better ways to solve this problem than putting a cap on value creation.
You can create value in the 99% of the world that isn't attached to your house.
Also a more conservative set of rules, like the limits I was talking about, would still let you own a house and upgrade it a lot in a way that you fully own.
> There are so many better ways to solve this problem than putting a cap on value creation.
Does "value creation" here specifically mean adding more living space?
Only a very tiny fraction of homeowner construction projects would be an issue. And if you want to do something like build a third house on your property, a rule like that would say "go ahead, but then you have to sell it when you're done". You can create tons of value and profit from it, you just can't own three houses.
I like building and improving houses. I have one in the bay area I work to improve.
I have built a mountain home in the Sierra Nevada, and am working on a desert home in Nevada. These take nothing away from anyone. They were empty land surrounded by more empty parcels before I did something with them.
There is no shortage of land and nothing is stopping someone else from doing the same. When I die, they will probably be sold off, and there will be more options. until then, nobody is worse off. I have thought about renting them out, which is still better than if they never existed.
Who am I hurting, and why should I be forced to sell?
If there was a law I couldnt own three houses, I simply wouldnt build them.
If you could see the extent of organization that such a life requires, you wouldn't say that. Especially when the alternative is "I bought this place and now you have to pay to live there" which is the highest form of doing nothing.
It is when you skip out the bit where you have to pay the mortgage or had to save up to buy the place.
If you can show me how to pay the mortgage by doing nothing, I'd love to know.
How can that be worse than "I didnt even buy this place, and now I get to live here"
It's not just about you
Working, saving, and buying a house is doing a lot more than doing nothing and expecting something
Holding other people's basic survival need for ransom is simply theft and entitlement.
What makes you think that people are going through all the complexity of squatting if they have the options of paying for a place to live?
> If you abolish property rights, your two options are state slavery or anarchy where the strong take whatever they can.
Anarchy where the strong (rich) take whatever they can is the situation we have now. Property rights as they currently exist are that rich people have property rights and nobody else does.
Unless you start talking solutions to homelessness, it starts to sound like you just don't care about the homeless and you're only interested in maintaining the power that exists.
Do they actually? Would they allow the previous homeowner to come live with them? Usually they seem intent on kicking/keeping the previous homeowner out, which is enforcement of their own property rights.
https://maldita.es/malditateexplica/20221026/datos-okupacion... has the actual data (in Spanish):
* 10-17k cases of occupation annually (rising until 2021, but down in 2022 and further down in 2023: https://www.cronista.com/espana/actualidad-es/adios-okupas-c...)
* Of those ~15k, 5% are actually occupation of somebody's residence (allanamiento de morada) and 95% of cases are occupation of an empty and unused house/shop/office (usurpación de vivienda). That includes unused commercial properties, and homes that are neither rented nor used by the owner.
* Note that a personally used holiday homes are also considered as a person's residence, so any occupation there would also come into that first 5%: https://www.ocu.org/fincas-y-casas/gestion/gestion-patrimoni....
That is to say: it is a problem (the 500 - 1000 cases per year nationwide of occupation of people's homes is clearly problematic) but it's not a really widespread problem for most middle-class people (the vast majority of people even in the middle classes do not own totally unused property).
It is a significant concern if you're a commercial landlord with any shops & offices between rental contracts, or if you're directly investing in property as pure speculation, without using it at all (which imo should be discouraged regardless - although I'd rather punitively tax it).
In the really problematic 5% case of people's homes, my understanding is that the law has tightened significantly, and if you can show that you're registered as actually living there, in theory they will evict okupas within 24 hours (I don't know how well that works in practice though).
Can't find any numbers on how many people are not paying and indefinitely staying in flats. While I'm sure it's a slow process, personally I'd be surprised if there's that many people in that situation long-term, since there's clearly laws and a working process to remove tenants in this case (30k evictions for non-payment in a year means forcing an eviction is clearly possible).
Idealista has some details on the process and how long it takes here: https://www.idealista.com/news/inmobiliario/vivienda/2022/10... and suggests that 7-8 months is typical (really interesting how effectively Idealista dominates as the source for info on all these topics, superb example of content marketing).
So I wouldn't be at all surprised if a lot of those empty homes being squatted in are felt as personal attacks and violations by the absentee owner, which would make it feel like a much bigger problem for individuals if you move in circles where people own empty properties.
I have family in California that had to deal with squatters on a rental property. It cost them ~400k, which included their kids college funds and retirement.
Costs were 3 years of lost rent while they paid the mortgage 250k damages done by the squatters, plus legal fees.
You are probably right in the majority of cases,but I do think it is a mistake to automatically discount financial harm as less.
If I invest 20 years of my income in a property that someone has stolen, that is a significant loss to me in human terms as well as financially.
I would be open to treating the destruction of such property equivalent to the taking of an equivalent amount of one's life.
You've also paid for your primary residence. But on top of that, you need it to live in. So it's a worse situation, generally speaking.
Is an empty room in your house immoral? Or massively oversized rooms even if you live in them? In the end you're still blocking a lot of "empty space" that someone else could use if only there were smaller but more living units. Same applies when you live in a detached house and "blocking" any potential living space that could have existed on higher floors of a tall apartment building. Zoning laws can also be an issue but the question stands.
To put in in practical terms, one person having two 50sqm/550sqft apartments is immoral. One person having one 150sqm/1500sqft apartment is fine? Where is the line and how arbitrary do you want it to be?
So "buying a house and purposefully leaving it empty is immoral" is bound to change the moment they purchase a second, empty house.
Years ago I hosted some African refugees in my home for a short time while more appropriate accommodation was in the works. I cannot describe the feeling I had seeing one of the children understand how a modern toilet works: we do our business in a bunch of clean water, and then dump a bunch more clean water to take it away. Given their circumstances this was probably the most immoral thing we could have done in the modern world.
This seems to be an unsupported speculation. And indeed it cuts both ways. Maybe you only think the second house is ok because that covers your needs and wants (either present or future anticipated). If you leave out the psychologizing, there's nothing to your argument beyond the slippery slope. Even if the exact location where individual people draw the line is psychologically explicable based on self-interest and their particular life circumstances, it still doesn't follow that a moral distinction cannot possibly be made.
More generally, it's fairly obvious that people who believe in strong property rights will tend to be people who have lots of property and people who don't will tend to be people who don't. That doesn't invalidate the arguments of either side; these have to be evaluated on their merits. You can say "I bet you'll believe in strong property rights once you own a house!", while a homeless person might equally say "I bet you'll have more sympathy for squatters once you've lived on the streets for a year!" Those sorts of examples tell us that people aren't perfectly disinterested when forming their moral outlook, but it doesn't tell us much about where moral distinctions can or can't be drawn.
What you do with it (or, don't do with it) is not morally neutral. I believe that hoarding it, preventing others from living in or purchasing it, is immoral.
Buying a house in order to leave it vacant is morally neutral. To wit,
Mike Murderer buys up real estate along the river and leaves it empty so that the dead bodies he stores inside are not discovered. Mike has acted immorally!
Mayor Susan convinces the city council to buy up real estate along the river and leave it empty to facilitate moving the residents there to higher ground to avoid expensive and dangerous seasonal flooding. Susan has acted morally.
But they both took the same positive action: purchasing real estate. This action was morally neutral.
As other people in this thread have correctly noted, it’s the justification not the action that has moral implications.
Just build more houses and then nobody will care.
The quality and quantity of said shelter was beyond abysmal. Several families sharing a single apartment, a family per room, was the norm.
If anyone attempted to squatter anywhere, they would very quickly find themselves free sheltered in Gulag. If they were to argue for their rights against oppression and exploitation, like you do, they would be very quickly free sheltered in a mad house and injected with generous doses of haloperidol.
So maybe things wouldn’t be that different at all for the poorest of this country but they’d not have the boot of monthly rent pinned on their neck.
Jimmy & Rosalynn Carter
https://www.habitat.org/carter-work-project
> what about their freedom?
I think they made good use of it.
We in the USA are the wealthiest nation in the history of the world. We could solve homelessness and hunger tomorrow.
I'm not saying that people should lose their property to squatters, that's not the solution. I'm saying that we could build ~300,000 new homes and give them to people for free and it would barely register on the national budget.
Article 47 of Spanish Constitution:
All Spaniards are entitled to enjoy decent and adequate housing. The public authorities shall promote the necessary conditions and shall establish appropriate standards in order to make this right effective, regulating land use in accordance with the general interest in order to prevent speculation.
It does not mean you have the right to live in a flat en La Castellana for whatever you want pay. It means the State has to implement policies to help people access housing.
Also, article 33 give citizens the right to private property. You cannot come squat in my house because article 33 should prevent it, even when article 47 exists.
Let's avoid considering outliers to maintain a balanced discussion.
While I don't believe anyone has the right to live in Castellana or the Royal Palace, it also wouldn't be fair to require someone to move to the desert to find a home.
If they actually had that right then a Spaniard would have the right to live in the king's and politicians' houses which is obviously not a right.
Once you understand the difference, you'd understand that you can continue living your life like normal :)
For example, if it's evident the owner is intending to return, there is personal belongings, utility contracts in the owners name and such, courts would (probably) consider it your primary residence even if you take an extended leave from it.
On the other hand, if you're away for several months, there is no clear intent to return and you've removed all furniture/personal belongings, courts can think it looks like it isn't your primary residence anymore, especially if you own other properties that it seems you might be living in instead.
Like most issues in society, there isn't any clear dividing line and no guarantees. That's why we have the legal system we have after all, so nuances can be taking into consideration.
Is your car sitting in your driveway right now? Someone else could be driving it, it's immoral that you don't leave the keys sitting on the roof.
Is your bed or couch empty right now? Someone else could be sleeping there right now.
Do you have money in your checking account? Someone else could be buying the things they need with that money, you should put the cash outside for them to take.
A house sitting empty while the owners renovate, look for tenants, try to sell, etc is a normal and necessary part of a functioning society.
The solution to housing shortages is to build more housing. That's it, that's the whole solution.
Yes there are power costs with 100% usage vs idle time but there are also cost of upkeep on a house.
So much space in towns dedicated to storing cars while they're not being used, taking space away from where housing can be built. As a non-american, I believe that parking lots are immoral as well :)
Media reports have been instrumental in shaping the narrative around squatting, with stories of 'okupas' sometimes being sensationalised to highlight conflicts and drama.
This is the approach of the class privileged enough to own the media (literally or figuratively): shape, to their favor, the public's opinion & perspective of an issue that affects most people relatively little, if at all, via sensational media.
See also: security theater, the TSA.
I'm curious how would you expect housing to stock to grow or even stay stable if nobody had to pay rent?
Would all housing be used owned by the state and assigned to individuals based on certain criteria (with huge amounts of inefficiency and corruption that such a system creates)?
I think that private property should not get nationalized.
I am currently buying a house, every month I pay money to the bank, this is very similar to having to pay rent. From my understanding of your logic, this would be a problem.
Further from that, I am building a house. I have to make payments to the builder(s) in order to have a place to live. Is this a problem?
Paying money to the bank implies you financed your purchase of a home. This is not necessarily a morally-neutral activity, it's in fact nuanced but we've done a good job of handwaving away the nuance in the last 4-5 generations of Americans.
A small vignette to explain: financing allows people to leverage their credit history and income to make larger purchases than they could otherwise afford. This increases the sticker price of purchasing a home, which prices out people with low credit or income. Anything that increases the price of housing effectively increases the price of rent, which limits peoples' abilities to save to actually purchase a home – it's a nasty cycle. One could argue that by participating in that system of financing, you're perpetuating it, but most people immediately dismiss this idea, ymmv.
Building a house, and paying people to build the house, is not a problem. You're exchanging value for labor and assets. You're de facto increasing the supply of housing.
I also think that if that was only the option, housing prices would rise rather than fall.
Cash up front, I assume in an escrow so that buyer can't cheat builder and builder can't run away with the money.
This means that a someone who wants to build/buy a home is going to need around 150k saved up.
Assuming that 50k yearly salary and rent is immoral, they have to live at home until saved up. 1/3 put aside is 16.66k per year, 9 years before they can get a house.
In actuality, the cost is probably going to be more expensive as you would no longer have developments going up.
It used to be (i.e. prior to the postwar expansion of credit to the American consumer) pretty common to build a "starter home" that was intended to be expanded. You start with the basics (basement, kitchen, bathroom, bedroom) and expand modularly from there as your prosperity and needs allow.
In the midwest, they would start by building the foundation, basement, and a very modest first floor. As the family prospered, had children, and developed roots in the neighborhood, they'd expand the above-ground portion of the home in the summer months. You can find homes frozen at each stage of development from the pre-depression 1900s still around today, although they're of greater archaeological value today than housing stock value. A lot of present-day "colonial" housing stock in the Northeastern U.S. have evidence of this gradual accrual over the decades.
This idea of "build a whole mansion at once" was historically reserved for the truly wealthy, and has only been "practical" for a greater segment of society for the last 50 years (again, with the expansion of consumer credit, not because we can actually afford these things).
You could still choose to build things this older style. Our culture of "obtain everything all at once, immediately up to the limit of your purchasing power" is the main impediment. That, and building codes might frown on some earlier-phase iterations, though YMMV.
I personally don't have an issue with you finding people who help you with building the house that agree to do that for some payment.
There are homeless shelters where people can have shelter without paying rent.
Be careful: Meme Magic works in both directions, and it is often difficult to detect its presence.
Which helps who exactly? Even squatting means that those houses will no longer be maintained and fall apart sooner or later which is how you end up having even more expensive housing long-term because of lower supply.
Higher taxation for uninhabited housing seems like an infinitely more sensible option...
A seemingly simple question, but not really.
> Even squatting means that those houses will no longer be maintained and fall apart sooner or later which is how you end up having even more expensive housing long-term because of lower supply.
I would like for humanity to get together and figure out how to genuinely pursue an optimal experience for all people, but it seems like the most wealthy and powerful among us are "not very (genuinely) interested" in that. Okay then, Plan B it is, I say.
> Higher taxation for uninhabited housing seems like an infinitely more sensible option...
Agreed. That's a bit slow for my liking though, we've been kicking that can down the road for generations. I believe fear to be one of the most substantial motivators in existence, and there are a lot more of us then there are of them.
I don’t understand the point of trying to downplay or diminish this problem.
Is dividing the victims along arbitrary class lines and arguing that most victims are not “middle class” supposed to make it better? It’s a problem regardless of who owns the property.
That was in reply to the parent comment, arguing this is a serious problem primarily for the "not-so-rich middle class" that is being ignored because we falsely imagine it's mainly a problem for banks and rich people.
In fact, the data suggests this really is primarily a problem for commercial landlords and property speculators, and the risks for typical homeowners is very low.
This is in sharp contrast to most media coverage, and the parent comment, which paint a picture of substantial risks that your personal home will be taken over by squatters. That is not true. The real level of risk to the average Spaniard is very roughly 2x the risk that they'll be murdered this year - not absolutely zero, but not very far from something you'd worry about day-to-day in Spain.
The legal process is definitely lengthy for actual occupation (usurpación) where the average eviction time is now but for people breaking & entering into your personal residence (allanamiento) it's not at all. If you can demonstrate this (easy enough: show you're the owner & empadronado, ask the neighbours to vouch for you, or show the utility bills all have your name on them) then it's clear allanamiento and that means there's no judicial order or further investigation required and the police can (and do) forcibly remove & arrest people _immediately_. It's a very nice clear-cut crime.
Basically the strong legal protections for personal dwellings cut both ways: they protect okupas who make somebody's empty property their legal residence, but they'll also strongly protect you & your own home if it's your legal residence.
There's more detailed background from an actual law firm on that here: https://vecindia.es/desalojo-okupas/cuanto-tardan-en-desaloj...
Given all that, I'd be quite surprised if allanamiento is underreported at all.
> Neither huge amount of somewhat legit cases of 'unused', nor media coverage doesn't make it right.
I'm not saying it's right, or that the problem doesn't exist. There are a small number of real cases of individual's homes being invaded. Even in other cases, property ownership does need to function reliably for commercial properties, and although owning empty properties may be problematic this is not a very good solution to that at all. I would be very happy to see usurpación cases resolved much quicker, and to increase property taxes on empty properties to reduce speculation instead.
That said, I do think that:
* The media hype about it is overblown, and for most people who worry about it (and some people worry about this a lot!) it's really not a serious risk.
* Political discussion & action related to it is frequently overblown for political advantage, and that's why some people think losing your home and being unable to recover it is far more common than it is.
* The victims here are generally large business and property speculators. The law should definitely protect those groups too, yes, but the strictness & speed of legal & police procedures should be proportional to the damage to the victims, and an empty shop being used by okupas is clearly less problematic than having somebody take over your actual home.
* The victims here are everyone who okupas can reach, the limit is not some imaginary moral boundary of the trespasser, but a sheer cost/reward balance. And it's not obvious where you should draw the line. Is a small shop worth it less than a relatively well off private citizen? How small a shop should be to be protected?
Arguably in the countries where the banks are protected the private citizens look even more protected, but I'm not going into that.
The class lines aren't arbitrary: a squatter in someone's unused third vacation property or whatever is causing much less harm than a squatter claiming someone's only residence while they're out of town.
So yes, the dynamics of who it happens to can make it better or worse. The only reason that wouldn't be the case is if what you consider bad about it is a violation of abstract property owner rights, rather than the potential material harms.
From what I observe, the amount of cases could have dropped down because many people choose to not buy or somehow shield their property (sometimes just filling windows with bricks, for example, which looks weird). So I'm not sure it's because the okupas/govt/police somehow changed the direction, it's just like the people get better at protecting themselves.
Btw, bying an apartment in Barcelona costs you 10% tax already, that probably discourages most speculation (and the prices have been stagnant for a couple of years).
I'm not too sure those measures deter those who are filthy-rich. Would you agree that it can be viewed as the cost of doing business... and, worst — that it could price out small competitors (allowing for the formation of cartels of big landlords)?
Mother of our kid owned a house in Spain. Two houses next to her house was an "okupa" but...
They were gypsies. They broke in and two first thing they did:
- change the locks
- put pitbulls (with a 's') in the garden
They were not nice people.Took six months but they eventually got kicked out.
Middle class is a family from Zaragoza having a vacation house in Maresme or some extra property in Alicante which were sold for like 20-30K a few years ago, and then occupied, which took them a few months to evict.
The collaboration between scary deoccupying folks and okupas should be common, even if hard to prove, and it's mostly directed on people like this. Many people don't go to police and prefer to pay off just not to see their property ruined.
renting out property you own as a means of income is the upper middle class part.
>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
Someone could be a landlord and only be taking home like $50k per year as "salary". You're saying that person is not middle-class?
Also, apparently the construction of new housing and maintenance of older stock.
So that we would be living in abandoned ruins and huts in a few decades if they got their way...
Not really. Also could we please stick to the Hackernews guidelines?
> Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. ... > When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
Ah yes, the not-so-rich middle class who can afford to own houses they leave vacant.
Is it your opinion that smoking weed makes someone's political opinions disingenuous or that smoking weed means they deserve to be homeless?
What's your solution to the lack of housing? Anarcho-capitalist HN is always worried about the unintended consequences of laws but never seems to be concerned about the intended consequences of the law, or have any other ways to solve that problem. It begins to sound like you just don't care about homelessness.
My solution to the lack of housing is to build more housing or having fewer people, it's that trivial and obvious.
Or, maybe they're just homeless and using politics to feel better about what they have to do to get homes.
Let's face it, smoking weed has nothing to do with this conversation, it's just a way to discredit people.
> My solution to the lack of housing is to build more housing or having fewer people, it's that trivial and obvious.
"Having fewer people"? I have to say I'm pretty concerned about what policy decisions you think that entails.
Sadly, building more housing doesn't solve the problem. You have to build more housing and prevent it from being removed in the same way housing is currently removed from the market by landlords and speculators. And... where are you going to build it? Property rights apply to land too, right? And you're going to fund this... how? Progressive taxation?
Well, it turns out that when you start talking details, a lot of the people who are really concerned about property rights just happen to think all the things that would be necessarily to actually provide homes for the homeless are too expensive, too restrictive, etc. So when it comes down to it, they're for getting rid of the bad solution for homelessness (squatting) and providing no better solution, because their concern was never homelessness.
Ultimately, you're right: the solution to homelessness is homes. But, I'm frankly pretty cynical given decades of homeless policy which solves how homelessness affects rich people and doesn't solve homelessness. If your main concern about homeless people is that they're squatting, then I just don't trust that you're actually concerned with solving homelessness.
That's why I'd like to see homelessness solved first. Once that's solved, we can solve the squatting problem, if it even still exists. Because doing otherwise starts to sound like yet another attempt to sideline the issue of homelessness.
Both of those groups serve the purpose of forcing the real estate owners to actually use their real estate instead of letting them rot to benefit from value appreciation like in the US - one of the main reasons of the housing crisis in the US.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/homes-for-sale-affordable-housi...
So yes, they actually do serve a robin-hood purpose.
Or not to invest into it in the first places which results in even lower supply of housing long-term.
> value appreciation
House prices in Spain haven't yet recovered to their pre 2009 levels. If adjusted by inflation they are still 35% lower so I'm not sure if its necessarily the soundest long-term investment.
Even better - the state can easily construct subsidized housing and make housing even more available. No need to rely on private profiteers for housing.
> House prices in Spain haven't yet recovered to their pre 2009 levels
A lot of things in the world have not recovered to their pre 2008 levels. That doesn't mean that profiteering is not going on.
> I'm not sure if its necessarily the soundest long-term investment.
Hopefully its not, and there will be even less investors. Housing should not be something for profiteering.
You don't even need the glorious state for that. Most normally gifted people can construct their own house by themselves with some help from friends and a some hired professionals for certain things.
This is such an obviously false premise that I don’t understand how you even arrived at it.
Real estate is expensive to maintain. You don’t let real estate appreciate in value by letting it “rot”.
If you think the US housing crisis is due to investors letting houses “rot” then you clearly don’t understand the situation at all.
In my neighborhood, there are at least 3 unoccupied homes within a 3 minute walk. We live in an area with accelerated entropy (the forest) and the homes are, by any useful metric, rotting. I will let you guess if in the past 10 years the value of the homes has gone up or down.
I would love if someone, squatters or not, lived in those properties. I understand things are different in different places, but where I live we have unoccupied homes that could house people. As it is, some private owner swings by once a year to throw another tarp on the roof and then fucks off, leaving an empty home to rot during a housing crisis. Yay, property rights.
I didn't arrive at anything. Its the actual reality of what happens here on the ground. You not being able to imagine something like that because of your cultural bias does not make it any less real.
> Real estate is expensive to maintain
Not as much as the value appreciation.
> If you think the US housing crisis is due to investors letting houses “rot” then you clearly don’t understand the situation at all.
Speak for yourself.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/housing-crisis-u-flipped-upsi...