Eventually you learn to stop trying to present alternative points of view and just go with the flow or leave because the "fools" are now in charge of the downvoting.
Eventually you learn to stop trying to present alternative points of view and just go with the flow or leave because the "fools" are now in charge of the downvoting.
At least 1568 days ago, the site founder pg was of a different opinion. He wrote,
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171
"I think it's ok to use the up and down arrows to express agreement. Obviously the uparrows aren't only for applauding politeness, so it seems reasonable that the downarrows aren't only for booing rudeness.
"It only becomes abuse when people resort to karma bombing: downvoting a lot of comments by one user without reading them in order to subtract maximum karma. Fortunately we now have several levels of software to protect against that."
My own analysis of the issue is that if I receive a downvote, I'm curious about why I received it. I understand that not everyone shares all of my opinions, but perhaps if one of my comments is downvoted, I can learn something about how to express my opinions so that they are allowed to stand, without people feeling they have to go out of their way to vote them down. Any time I have a comment with negative karma (which is a rare occurrence), I look back on what I said, and think about what I can learn from the other comments in the same thread and how I might express myself better the next time. I try to learn from the people who disagree with me as well as from the people who agree with me.
Although pg hasn't implemented a change to this effect, I believe he would agree that -- "people feeling they have to go out of their way to vote them down" -- implies a downvote should be more work than an upvote.
I think a downvote should require a response to the parent comment that:
1. contains at least 15 English words, excluding quoted phrases
2. quotes at least min(25% of entire comment, 5 consecutive words) of the parent comment
3. meets current downvote requirements (karma and downvote bombing protections spring to mind immediately)
For the sake of argument, such a "required downvote comment" could contribute almost nothing -- but it would still reduce downvotes. An example of a really bad downvote comment on this comment might be:
> a change to this effect
This is HN, not reddit. Um, did you read the article? I down voted you.
The 15 English word requirement sort of requires some sort of explanation. Does anyone think this would help?If the downvote reason was only visible to the writer, then I could go for that. But it's ridiculous to make a rule that drives people to have huge off-topic flamewars in the middle of a comments section.
Make the downvote reason only visible to the writer, and do not allow the writer to reply to the downvote reason - the system already heavily favors upvotes over downvotes, so that writers can just shrug off the downvotes.
The main thrust of my suggestion is to make downvoting even harder.
Also, I think that, in general, quoting in comments tends to lead to lower quality comments. It's a lot easier to do a point by point nitpick than the write a proper response to the ideas contained in the parent post.
For instance if someone wrongly states "There are five lights." my reply would probably only contain the correction "There are FOUR lights!"; anything beyond that would be artificial inflation.
I think it would result in lots of redundant comments. I down voted you.
Any ranking or moderation involves one degree of subjective judgement: you have a post and you have a dimension along which to rank it (according to certain criteria), where do you put it? This is true even if the criteria are completely objective, e.g. if you asked people to moderate posts in terms of spelling or grammar, which are fairly objective, moderation would introduce a subjective quality (e.g. people don't recognize a typo, some will think a couple of grammar mistakes in a long post shouldn't lead to a down vote, others will disagree).
Post quality has fairly objective criteria, but they are never really spelled out. Nevertheless, it's usually fairly easy to recognize trolls and flamebaits and overall bad quality posts, independent of your own position or even the existence of a position in a certain context.
Agreement introduces another level of indirection, in a manner of speaking: not only does the act of assessing the criteria involve a subjective effort, the criteria themselves are completely subjective, ie. it completely depends on the moderator's own opinion in the context.
Why elaborate on this? Well, in the first place I think it's intellectually interesting how the two dimensions differ in a fairly fundamental way. But there are practical consequences to this, as well.
Simply adding up up/downvotes means we can't distinguish between a post that has not received any moderation and one that has received an large amount of moderation that has cancelled out itself. This seems all right for "quality" moderation: when good-faith moderators can't decide on where to put a comment on this scale, then it's probably not clear where applying the objective-but-not-spelled-out criteria leads to, and it's probably a post that's neither particularly trolly or insightful -- the system works! But when good-faith moderators hugely conflict on an "agreement" moderation, this means the moderators themselves are in conflict, and the post articulates this in a way that makes them agree or disagree, e.g. by identifying the central contested issue. And despite being a +300 & -300 post, it sits there at +/- 0: I don't think the system works very well here.
I'm not sure why we're trying to moderate both dimensions on a single scale on HN. I guess it's an elegant system, because it compresses so much information and complex judgements down to just a single up- or a downvote per person. On a large scale, this should yield good results, right? Well, I don't buy it. In effect, every post is a mini-poll mixed with a quality moderation -- and this is what we use to, essentially, delete comments. Ideally, we'd have two moderation options: a post quality moderation that's summed up, used to hide trolls and flamebaits and not otherwise shown, and an agreement moderation that's not summed up but displayed for everyone to see. "Agreement" votes wouldn't affect karma, as people should neither be awarded for having a popular opinion nor be punished for voicing an unpopular one.
I upvoted you because I'm in agreement that this is how it should be in an ideal world. I just don't think it is helpful in practice.
The problem here is that people tend to either pick "Agree/High Quality" or "Disagree/Low Quality". These two axes are not orthogonal within the voter's mind.
Given a high correlation, the extra axis only increases complexity without much benefit.
For me, a comment like this one: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4034170 exemplifies some of the deterioration. The commenter asks for substantiation of a claim that refers back to the original article that was submitted. If he'd read the article, he'd know that.
Now, it's easy to argue that this is a one-time example, and alone that's true. But I'm noticing these kinds of comments more and more—ones in which people comment without knowing anything, or without reading the original article, or even without closely reading the person who they're replying to.
Unfortunately, I don't have a solution.
Perhaps closed communities with a curated member list is the answer[1][2]. Closed communities are not without its own drawbacks, but the trade off may be acceptable to some.
Open communities allows for anyone's input, but you also get drama like arguing about Javascript semicolons or GitHub's commit messages. However, closed communities are susceptible to group think. How do you judge a minority opinion's validity?
[1]: http://svbtle.com/ [2]: http://www.behance.net/
I think the decay you note is specific to communities who are not coming in with any sort of common self-interest at stake. In essence they are what I might call "intellectual entertainment" communities. People read and argue on Slashdot primarily because it's fun. People argue on PostgreSQL email lists because they all want PostgreSQL to be as good as it can be. In the former, a troll can stir up a lot of argument, but in the latter, the most that can be hoped for is a collegial discussion on the merits of a specific approach.
HN leans towards the former. I am betting most commenters are mostly interested in fun conversations. However, the fact is that it is also an integral part of a VC ecosystem and so presents an aspect of common economic interest as well.
HN was originally largely in the "scientific conference" mode, with very smart people discussing areas in which they were experts. Now HN has much more "cocktail party" flavor, with smart people chatting about random things they often know little about. And certain subjects (e.g. economics, Apple, sexism, piracy) bring out the "debate team" commenters.
Any of the three types can carry on happily by themself. However, much of the problem comes when the types of conversation mix. The "cocktail party" conversations will annoy the "scientific conference" readers, since half of what they say is wrong. Conversely, the "scientific conference" commenters come across as pedantic when they interrupt a fun conversation with facts or "citation needed". A conversation between "debate team" and one of the other groups obviously goes nowhere.
I think the comment karma in HN encourages "cocktail party" conversation since you're as likely to get upvoted for trivial chitchat as a carefully-reasoned expert statement. (See http://news.ycombinator.com/bestcomments) Also, as I just found out, "expired link" on HN encourages quick comments rather than slowly written ones.
(And yes, I realize the irony that this is a "cocktail party" style comment of with my random opinion. I've actually considered ways of making this categorization quantitative, but it would take way too much time.)
A downvote is also justified when a comment is misleading, contains a fallacious argument, or misrepresents contents of other comments or the article. Sometimes even when it's just incorrect. Unless the particular misconception is somewhat popular or difficult to spot.
Basically, anything that could be removed without loss of value, should be downvoted.
FWIW I like the way HN has chosen to handle this. You can't even downvote until you go past a certain karma threshold (eliminates sock puppetry and calling for backup), and even if you are down voted into oblivion, your words are still visible (if a little harder to see).
Now if they'd just lighten up on the hell bans. I've seen a number of valid comments here which were dead on arrival.
There's a strong temptation to interact, even with someone you suspect is a fool. Resist that temptation, and carefully use a downvote.
There's a great article called "Why We Banned Legos" which covers some of the weird problems that online communities get into. (A small group of children get control of the lego, and decide who can have what pieces, etc.)
(http://www.rethinkingschools.org/restrict.asp?path=archive/2...)
Meatball wiki covers lots of these concepts. I've posted it before. Here it is again.
Edit: To be clear, it's not unfortunate that the silent probably won't be downvoting, it's the wise we're missing out on.
An example of what would make a vote "harder" would be to require reason-words. When you click down-arrow a box might pop up where you must select (or better still, type out in full) at least two words justifying the vote such as "Abusive" or "Pointless". This would also help to prevent fat-fingered downvotes that I've accidentally done on my iPad because the arrows are too close together and irreversible.
One issue I could see happening would be people abusing the feature to send hateful messages. Some solutions may be to allow users to delete messages or block the ability to give them text feedback along with a down or up vote.
Another problem might be causing a sort of hugfest where users try to get upvotes by upvoting someone else, creating an upvote ring. (Eg: Including their name in the feedback and asking for upvotes.) One countermeasure would be to block the user from putting in their unabridged unedited name into the feedback box. (Of course, this could be circumvented in the way that almost all other online censor systems are circumvented. Obfuscation.)
Thoughts?
Maybe the right thing is for downvotes to always list voter IDs (but probably not long upvote lists). If I downvote something for "the right reasons" I don't really care if anyone knows it because I expect most people will agree with me. The opposite would be true for someone doing a lot of petty downvoting; he or she would probably be embarrassed and discouraged once everyone can see that the same person has downvoted a bunch of comments for no reason.
One way to find a "reason" for a personal downvote, then, would be to look at everything else your downvoters have downvoted. One of two patterns would probably form: either these people are in the habit of downvoting lots of stuff for no reason, or they seem to be downvoting comments that have common themes.