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Comment by jqpabc123 | Hacker News Reader

Too bad Linux still can't offer a desktop alternative that is widely acceptable.

Personally, I am contemplating moving to a server version of Windows on my desktop. This AI nonsense looks like just a privacy invasion scheme.

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I really like plasma. But above all I love that there is choice. I could never deal with gnome 3. If Linux were to pick that as the one standard desktop I just would leave the platform.

I moved from a Mac to Gnome 3 and think it's fine, at least compared to MacOS or Windows.

I can imagine, but I moved away from macOS precisely because I found it too opinionated.

It was actually much better in the past, when it was more of a Unix with a fancy GUI bolted on. These days it's becoming more like iOS, "Trust us, we know better than you how things should work, you must use it like we intended". That's not how I am. I have very strong ideas on how my computer should work.

When I look at Gnome I see the exact same ("you're using it wrong") attitude in the developers. That will never fly for me. That's why I love KDE because they embrace choice.

The thing is that even with KDE my desktop is quite heavily modified. I use a 3x3 desktop grid with fullsize windows and I remapped the keys on the numpad to be quick desktop selectors without modifier keys and added other quick keys for tab shifting and window to desktop reassignment, so I can control most things fully with the keyboard. Also remapped other things like KDE's Activities for even more flexibility. Also I modified the look and feel very heavily.

But I didn't need a single plugin for KDE at all to make this possible! Every time I want to do something outlandish I look around and there is a setting for it. It's amazing. For Gnome (yes I did use it at one stage) I needed a bunch of plugins to do even the most simple things like make the window toolbars not so insanely big, to put virtual desktops in a grid, to add a dock etc.

These are some things I used to do in macOS but they removed for example the ability to put virtual desktops in a grid (they are now in a row only) and they added this horrible full-screen option that doesn't do what I want. It felt like every update apple was trying to saw the legs of my chair from under me. I was getting so sick of it.

But anyway I would never be on board the linux train if Gnome were the only option available. And even if it were to become one I (and I'm sure many others) would keep alternatives alive. I'm just not a team player. I don't get with the program.

I just use the Dash to Dock plugin on Debian, a few custom key bindings for switching virtual desktops and the default dark theme. One could probably customize it to some extent using their stupid gconf registry. KDE is probably fine as well, but I've never used Plasma and the and one was too much like Windows. Thats's the beauty of the Linux desktop, where was always choice.

Too bad Linux still can't offer a desktop alternative that is widely acceptable.

Well, yes it can. But the choice of Desktop whether that be Linux, MacOS or Windows is just a matter of familiarisation.

I have the exact opposite view to you: "Too bad Windows still can't offer a desktop alternative that is widely acceptable." but that is because I have been using a Linux Desktop for over 20 years. I've been using the LinuxMint MATE Desktop for about 10-11 years.

If you feel happy with Windows, stick with it. It's your machine, and your choice.

I haven’t used Windows in over a decade and hate it but if you think Windows is not widely accepted for desktop users on planet Earth while Linux is, you live in an alternate reality.

If you think Windows 11 is 'widely acceptable' then let's agree to differ. <grin>

My biggest issue is gaming, as anytime I try doing anything with Proton I find myself screwing around with it too much which defeats the purpose IMO.

Otherwise I would’ve switched long ago, as at the very least the development environment is much nicer in Linux.

just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the more 'traditional' Linux desktops, such as Plasma or Cinnamon?

To find the answer, try to convince a large number of people/businesses to use one of them.

A lot of the issue is that you were able to name more than one, and that was without mentioning Gnome or XFCE

I think that's the great thing about Linux.

Something like gnome is so closed down that it couldn't be for everyone. I tried using a ton of plugins to make it workable but then things break with every update.

If Gnome doesn't work for everyone, what they had to do was make it work. There has to be a way. The vast majority of the market is using Windows and Mac, and somehow both have avoided the need for multiple separate DEs.

I actually moved away from Mac because it's so opinionated just like gnome.

But what's the problem with having choice?

It adds complexity, especially for new users and even more for corporations. There's maintenance burden as different DEs fall out of favor, things become incompatible, and you have to migrate. Even sticking to one Linux distro, the default DE can change across versions. If you want to troubleshoot online, you can't Google "how to do X in GNU/Linux," you have to specify the DE and version too. Vs with Mac or Windows it's quite clear what you're using and how you get help for it.

Most people don't even think that far though, they just want a name brand they can trust and understand. So the most popular desktop Linux is probably ChromeOS.

> how to do X in GNU/Linux

That's because GNU/Linux isn't an OS. The distributions are distinct OSes. They just have a lot in common.

> It adds complexity, especially for new users and even more for corporations. There's maintenance burden as different DEs fall out of favor, things become incompatible, and you have to migrate.

Corporations can easily mandate whatever distro and DE they please on their internal systems. Not an issue.

The maintenance burden is on the distros and they can choose which DEs they support. They don't have to offer them all. In fact some distros come with a single DE only.

I know the wishful thinking that Linux would be a single system that would make it big with consumers. But if that happens, people that love Linux now will absolutely hate it. It will be unrecognisable. All the power and control will be gone because consumers don't want that. They must want to pay someone and trust them.

Case in point: ChromeOS. It's exactly that: Linux for the masses. How many Linux fans actually use that because it's Linux?

I do, IMHO as MacBooks are/used to be for developers, Chromebooks are for Linux developers.

Really? You don't mind Google's extensive datamining and lockdown of the OS?

I would never ever consider using that. I'm surprised also, in our company nobody uses chromeos. But we have thousands of linux laptops and hundreds of Macs.

I've considered a Chromebook at work where the real coding and builds are being done over SSH on a headless Linux machine anyway, but the fuss involved for just a basic shell and SSH were enough to turn me away. So I can't imagine using one for local development too, data mining aside. I know some people use it and it works with the right workarounds, but why bother.

Also idk why there's nothing as good as the Mac iTerm2 for Linux.

Um, you literally go to Settings -> About ChromeOS -> Developers, enable "Linux development environment" and after 5 minutes have access to fully featured Debian Linux.

The standalone (non-linux) ssh client is indeed not the best, it's okay.

We aren't allowed to do the first suggestion at work. If you can, and it's literally Debian, then it's fine.

a small anecdote:

in 2019, my wife finally got fed up with windows 10. she used no software that was 'windows-only', so she asked me if i'd help her begin the move over to gnu/linux.

i made her live-drives of several different distributions, and showed her how to boot into them on her machine to play with the live environments. iirc, she messed around with ubuntu, solus, mint, and elementary.

she liked the fact that she had so much choice available to her. she eventually settled on mint cinnamon, as it has an environment she is familiar and comfortable with, and that was that. she's been running it ever since. and, keep in mind, my wife is someone who doesn't live and breathe computers like most of us here do.

i know there are the people out there who have disdain for the amount of choice we have in the linux desktop space ("fragmentation!"), but most people appreciate the amount of choice on offer.

i mentioned the two I thought people moving from windows would be most comfy with.

for them, taskbar on bottom + 'start' menu = "neat, i already know how to use this!"

personally, i use i3/sway tiling window managers, and also keep gnome around if i want a full desktop. personally, i love the amount of choice we have in the gnu/linux world. if something doesn't work for you, you can select from so many other options.

"but...but...fragmentation! those guys working on cinnamon/mate/etc should just join gnome or kde and make The One True Desktop!" eh. i don't buy this line of thinking.

There are plenty of informally agreed-upon defaults in the GNU/Linux world. For instance almost everyone uses Bash, Git is the dominant version control, and the default browser is usually Firefox-based. This doesn't mean alternatives shouldn't exist, but they aren't neck and neck. Somehow no DE has won yet, and that's a serious usability problem.

i'd say, in a way, we have 'informally' agreed upon a default desktop.

the flagship edition of ubuntu? GNOME.

the flagship edition of fedora? GNOME.

RHEL? GNOME.

installing debian with its defaults? GNOME.

while KDE ships on a few distros by default, and Mint ships with Cinnamon as its flagship, by-and-large, GNOME is what you're gonna get from your "major" distributions.

Most distros can't even recover from a shutdown while updating (windows handles it since Vista).

what do you mean?

That's why using immutable distros is awesome. Worst case scenario, you can boot the previous version.

I've been using Fedora Silverblue for a while and never got a borked upgrade. It's not without its own flaws, but if you can live with mostly flatpak apps, it's a pretty compelling package.

Same with FreeBSD with ZFS on root. Bectl makes an automatic snapshot every time. Not even any need to deal with an immutable OS.

Yeah but shutdown while updating is a lot less likely when the OS isn't forcing updates.

on nixOS, if something borks, i can do a system rollback right from my bootscreen. easy-peasy.

on debian, i can create system backups/snapshots via timeshift and restore them if something breaks.

It's extremely rare that any modern journalling filesystem (Windows, Linux, MacOS) can't recover from an unscheduled shutdown these days.

Funny you say this, my windows can't seem to recover from updating. Several times it has been stuck for more than one hour at which point I yank the power and try updating some other time. Even the most slower linux distros update in minutes and never failed me for more than a decade.

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