Microsoft's full-screen reminders – upgrade to Windows 11 are back | Hacker News Reader

Microsoft's full-screen reminders – upgrade to Windows 11 are back

techradar.com

33 pointsnehagup54 comments

These fullscreen messages are so confusing to elderly people, most of my support calls from family and friends are related to the weird and unpredictable updates and invasive popups, or the consequences from these.

I have slowly been moving them, one by one, over to Fedora. I still get support calls, but not related to the OS, more like, "how do I add an attachment to this email, I forgot."

Would've never thought of having a non-tech-understanding person use GNU/Linux before, but nowadays I think Windows has managed to close the gap on its own by becoming horrible. Though there are other options like iPad or Chromebook.

If they're non-tech-understanding enough, it might not matter at all. Someone who's oblivious enough may use the computer as more of an appliance (plus web).

I had my ageing parents set up with a Linux desktop for some years in the past. I just -pre-configured everything they'd likely have needed. Browser, email, instant messaging (as it was at the time), a photos app, possibly something else I'm forgetting.

It's the somewhat tech-savvy (or at least somewhat tech-independent) for whom such a transition might be the most trouble.

(And, of course, those people who use specialized applications or hardware for which support may not be available, or who use workflows that require going somewhat below the "appliance" level and which could require significant relearning.)

I agree that the semi-power-user category is the most problematic, but my grandma wasn't there. More like, so non-tech-savvy that she accidentally clicked buttons or hit shortcuts for power users, messing things up in ways she couldn't fix. Like, she deleted the Safari address bar and installed 10 malicious Chrome extensions. Used her mouse upside-down for a while once.

GNU/Linux actually might've been best because it's harder to do anything in it. Chromebook wasn't an option cause the screens are too small, and idk if Chromeboxes were viable back then (~2015). She used to use Windows, which was an unmitigated disaster with viruses.

I guess my parents are/were of a cautious enough sort that, for them, the trouble of navigating the internet turned more into narrower use rather than installing tons of malicious extensions via questionable websites. (I do remember once finding an .exe file downloaded from the website of a magazine to which my father subscribed. Didn't work in Ubuntu, I guess. Probably also not malicious in that case, but I can see how people could end up with crapware.)

As for other issues with basic use, my mother is even older now, and even things that used to be pre-arranged and familiar have become more difficult. But I don't think the OS matters much for that any more, on a grand scale. Touchscreens might help to an extent (and also avoid upside-down mouse issues), and obviously things would need to be set up so that there aren't any unnecessary hurdles. But beyond that it's learned routines rather than any kind of a generalized understanding anyway. She does know how to usually get rid of things by clicking 'x' though.

Did you find something that worked out for your grandma in the end?

(edit: You edited your reply before I finished mine, so I replied to the earlier version. I see the problem with accidentally triggering things. I guess it might be the fairly cautious nature and the limited use patterns that might have saved my parents from them.)

Sorry, I wanted to reword my comment to be shorter but say the same thing basically.

Nothing worked. In hindsight, maybe the Mac would've been ok-ish if I'd used Chrome Remote Desktop to help whenever she had issues, which had fewer pitfalls than the other screen sharing options I tried. Last one I remember was Teamviewer, which broke cause her friend "fixed her computer by removing junk" like that, but it also had other issues before.

No worries. Too bad that nothing worked.

Screen sharing for support is probably a necessary problem I didn't think of much since I happen to live close by. It'd absolutely need to be something that requires minimal effort from them.

I had my grandmother running on Linux since 2008, and she loved it. She wasn't gonna get a virus, she didn't have root/sudo capability on her user, which meant she wasn't going to break anything, and she had ad blocking in her browser. She was told two things: "1. If something wants to install something or update something, say no. If it keeps asking, call me. 2. You can't break this." This removed the fear she had using a computer, and went from "too afraid to turn it on lest she hear the sighs and frustrations of her now late technophile husband" to "doing everything from social media to online shopping". The last machine she had was an Asus Chromebox I bought her when the machine she was using was just not able to keep up anymore. She used Google Apps for word processing, Gmail for email, and had a ball.

Sibling commenters have it right - if a computer is an appliance to them, then going for the simplest, least likely to accidentally mess up option is the best one.

Linux (in my case Fedora) has been fantastic, especially for the non-techs who have not gotten used to Windows or a Mac! All they need is a browser (with adblock) and maybe a simple word processor. Fedora does not nag about updates, it just chugs along and keeps everything up-to-date in the background. Major OS-updates is a one click in the app store, which I do once a year-ish. Soooo much less hassle then MacOS and Windows!

I can see it, OS doesn't nag the user and things stay static aside from automatic updates, which you could even disable if you wanna be around for them. Problem is even some web things will not work the same in Linux, for example Netflix officially only supports 720p, and hardware compatibility isn't guaranteed (bluetooth and wifi especially).

I can see it now...

"How do I share my screen?"

"Well grandma, the Google Chrome Flatpak you're using defaults to Xorg so it runs in XWayland, which means it can't see the desktop because the rest of your shell is native in Wayland. If you go to chrome://flags and set prefered-ozone-platform to wayland it might work, but some people in this reddit thread also mention you need to install xdg-desktop-portal-gnome so it can call the screensharing API in GNOME. This also might not work in the Flatpak at all and maybe just the RPM."

I usually use my Linux workstation headlessly at work, but maybe once a year I turn on the screen. It's an entirely different GUI each time. Last time this somehow had to do with the Xorg vs Wayland thing, which also partially broke Chrome Remote Desktop. It's hilarious.

Yeah, this used to be a problem, but it has been working fine since Fedora 39. I can share a single window or the whole screen with the video conferencing tools I'm using, mainly Signal, sometimes Google Meet, Teams (both in Firefox running natively on Wayland) and Zoom.

Flatpak has made it so easy to install most common apps, just press the Super key, search for the app, click on it in the list and "Install". Usually takes less than 10-30 seconds from start 'till the app is installed and running. Very grandma-proof, actually!

EDIT: But I will say that the road to where GNOME / Fedora is today has been a bumpy ride, like a car that is under maintenance while driving :) It's the FOSS / Linux way. In the end, the result is actually quite amazing and user friendly.

Oh, and for screen sharing for support, I use the built-in Remote Desktop functionality (RDP). I have set up a Wireguard connection from the laptop to my home network which makes it possible for me to jump at any time in without 'grandma' having to do anything. Such an improvement over TeamViewer (which also had trouble with Wayland for a long time, maybe still does?).

Remote support is a breeze now, and we save the usual 30 minutes of guiding an update of TeamViewer over the phone (because of an old and incompatible version) etc.

I usually keep a minimal Windows partition on my machines by reducing the Windows install that comes with my machines down to 100 gig or even less.

But over the last few years, the Windows 10 and Windows 11 installations are being booted occasionally merely to update the Windows itself.

More and more I'm considering that to be a waste of time, because I don't use Win 10 or Win 11 for anything practical. I only use Win 7 when I do use Windows.

It's probably time to blow away those Win 10 and Win 11 partitions entirely, I think.

They're increasingly becoming UX hostile.

Also, what's up with the random "welcome to your new device, lets set everything up". Seen that about 4 times already on my current W11 install.

I tried to read this article attempting to find any instance of the aforementioned Full screen reminder and about 10 images in I gave up.

Too bad Linux still can't offer a desktop alternative that is widely acceptable.

Personally, I am contemplating moving to a server version of Windows on my desktop. This AI nonsense looks like just a privacy invasion scheme.

just out of curiosity, what's wrong with the more 'traditional' Linux desktops, such as Plasma or Cinnamon?

To find the answer, try to convince a large number of people/businesses to use one of them.

A lot of the issue is that you were able to name more than one, and that was without mentioning Gnome or XFCE

I think that's the great thing about Linux.

Something like gnome is so closed down that it couldn't be for everyone. I tried using a ton of plugins to make it workable but then things break with every update.

If Gnome doesn't work for everyone, what they had to do was make it work. There has to be a way. The vast majority of the market is using Windows and Mac, and somehow both have avoided the need for multiple separate DEs.

I actually moved away from Mac because it's so opinionated just like gnome.

But what's the problem with having choice?

It adds complexity, especially for new users and even more for corporations. There's maintenance burden as different DEs fall out of favor, things become incompatible, and you have to migrate. Even sticking to one Linux distro, the default DE can change across versions. If you want to troubleshoot online, you can't Google "how to do X in GNU/Linux," you have to specify the DE and version too. Vs with Mac or Windows it's quite clear what you're using and how you get help for it.

Most people don't even think that far though, they just want a name brand they can trust and understand. So the most popular desktop Linux is probably ChromeOS.

> how to do X in GNU/Linux

That's because GNU/Linux isn't an OS. The distributions are distinct OSes. They just have a lot in common.

> It adds complexity, especially for new users and even more for corporations. There's maintenance burden as different DEs fall out of favor, things become incompatible, and you have to migrate.

Corporations can easily mandate whatever distro and DE they please on their internal systems. Not an issue.

The maintenance burden is on the distros and they can choose which DEs they support. They don't have to offer them all. In fact some distros come with a single DE only.

I know the wishful thinking that Linux would be a single system that would make it big with consumers. But if that happens, people that love Linux now will absolutely hate it. It will be unrecognisable. All the power and control will be gone because consumers don't want that. They must want to pay someone and trust them.

Case in point: ChromeOS. It's exactly that: Linux for the masses. How many Linux fans actually use that because it's Linux?

I do, IMHO as MacBooks are/used to be for developers, Chromebooks are for Linux developers.

Really? You don't mind Google's extensive datamining and lockdown of the OS?

I would never ever consider using that. I'm surprised also, in our company nobody uses chromeos. But we have thousands of linux laptops and hundreds of Macs.

I've considered a Chromebook at work where the real coding and builds are being done over SSH on a headless Linux machine anyway, but the fuss involved for just a basic shell and SSH were enough to turn me away. So I can't imagine using one for local development too, data mining aside. I know some people use it and it works with the right workarounds, but why bother.

Also idk why there's nothing as good as the Mac iTerm2 for Linux.

Um, you literally go to Settings -> About ChromeOS -> Developers, enable "Linux development environment" and after 5 minutes have access to fully featured Debian Linux.

The standalone (non-linux) ssh client is indeed not the best, it's okay.

We aren't allowed to do the first suggestion at work. If you can, and it's literally Debian, then it's fine.

a small anecdote:

in 2019, my wife finally got fed up with windows 10. she used no software that was 'windows-only', so she asked me if i'd help her begin the move over to gnu/linux.

i made her live-drives of several different distributions, and showed her how to boot into them on her machine to play with the live environments. iirc, she messed around with ubuntu, solus, mint, and elementary.

she liked the fact that she had so much choice available to her. she eventually settled on mint cinnamon, as it has an environment she is familiar and comfortable with, and that was that. she's been running it ever since. and, keep in mind, my wife is someone who doesn't live and breathe computers like most of us here do.

i know there are the people out there who have disdain for the amount of choice we have in the linux desktop space ("fragmentation!"), but most people appreciate the amount of choice on offer.

i mentioned the two I thought people moving from windows would be most comfy with.

for them, taskbar on bottom + 'start' menu = "neat, i already know how to use this!"

personally, i use i3/sway tiling window managers, and also keep gnome around if i want a full desktop. personally, i love the amount of choice we have in the gnu/linux world. if something doesn't work for you, you can select from so many other options.

"but...but...fragmentation! those guys working on cinnamon/mate/etc should just join gnome or kde and make The One True Desktop!" eh. i don't buy this line of thinking.

There are plenty of informally agreed-upon defaults in the GNU/Linux world. For instance almost everyone uses Bash, Git is the dominant version control, and the default browser is usually Firefox-based. This doesn't mean alternatives shouldn't exist, but they aren't neck and neck. Somehow no DE has won yet, and that's a serious usability problem.

i'd say, in a way, we have 'informally' agreed upon a default desktop.

the flagship edition of ubuntu? GNOME.

the flagship edition of fedora? GNOME.

RHEL? GNOME.

installing debian with its defaults? GNOME.

while KDE ships on a few distros by default, and Mint ships with Cinnamon as its flagship, by-and-large, GNOME is what you're gonna get from your "major" distributions.

Most distros can't even recover from a shutdown while updating (windows handles it since Vista).

what do you mean?

That's why using immutable distros is awesome. Worst case scenario, you can boot the previous version.

I've been using Fedora Silverblue for a while and never got a borked upgrade. It's not without its own flaws, but if you can live with mostly flatpak apps, it's a pretty compelling package.

Same with FreeBSD with ZFS on root. Bectl makes an automatic snapshot every time. Not even any need to deal with an immutable OS.

Yeah but shutdown while updating is a lot less likely when the OS isn't forcing updates.

on nixOS, if something borks, i can do a system rollback right from my bootscreen. easy-peasy.

on debian, i can create system backups/snapshots via timeshift and restore them if something breaks.

It's extremely rare that any modern journalling filesystem (Windows, Linux, MacOS) can't recover from an unscheduled shutdown these days.

Funny you say this, my windows can't seem to recover from updating. Several times it has been stuck for more than one hour at which point I yank the power and try updating some other time. Even the most slower linux distros update in minutes and never failed me for more than a decade.

My biggest issue is gaming, as anytime I try doing anything with Proton I find myself screwing around with it too much which defeats the purpose IMO.

Otherwise I would’ve switched long ago, as at the very least the development environment is much nicer in Linux.

I really like plasma. But above all I love that there is choice. I could never deal with gnome 3. If Linux were to pick that as the one standard desktop I just would leave the platform.

I moved from a Mac to Gnome 3 and think it's fine, at least compared to MacOS or Windows.

I can imagine, but I moved away from macOS precisely because I found it too opinionated.

It was actually much better in the past, when it was more of a Unix with a fancy GUI bolted on. These days it's becoming more like iOS, "Trust us, we know better than you how things should work, you must use it like we intended". That's not how I am. I have very strong ideas on how my computer should work.

When I look at Gnome I see the exact same ("you're using it wrong") attitude in the developers. That will never fly for me. That's why I love KDE because they embrace choice.

The thing is that even with KDE my desktop is quite heavily modified. I use a 3x3 desktop grid with fullsize windows and I remapped the keys on the numpad to be quick desktop selectors without modifier keys and added other quick keys for tab shifting and window to desktop reassignment, so I can control most things fully with the keyboard. Also remapped other things like KDE's Activities for even more flexibility. Also I modified the look and feel very heavily.

But I didn't need a single plugin for KDE at all to make this possible! Every time I want to do something outlandish I look around and there is a setting for it. It's amazing. For Gnome (yes I did use it at one stage) I needed a bunch of plugins to do even the most simple things like make the window toolbars not so insanely big, to put virtual desktops in a grid, to add a dock etc.

These are some things I used to do in macOS but they removed for example the ability to put virtual desktops in a grid (they are now in a row only) and they added this horrible full-screen option that doesn't do what I want. It felt like every update apple was trying to saw the legs of my chair from under me. I was getting so sick of it.

But anyway I would never be on board the linux train if Gnome were the only option available. And even if it were to become one I (and I'm sure many others) would keep alternatives alive. I'm just not a team player. I don't get with the program.

I just use the Dash to Dock plugin on Debian, a few custom key bindings for switching virtual desktops and the default dark theme. One could probably customize it to some extent using their stupid gconf registry. KDE is probably fine as well, but I've never used Plasma and the and one was too much like Windows. Thats's the beauty of the Linux desktop, where was always choice.

Too bad Linux still can't offer a desktop alternative that is widely acceptable.

Well, yes it can. But the choice of Desktop whether that be Linux, MacOS or Windows is just a matter of familiarisation.

I have the exact opposite view to you: "Too bad Windows still can't offer a desktop alternative that is widely acceptable." but that is because I have been using a Linux Desktop for over 20 years. I've been using the LinuxMint MATE Desktop for about 10-11 years.

If you feel happy with Windows, stick with it. It's your machine, and your choice.

I haven’t used Windows in over a decade and hate it but if you think Windows is not widely accepted for desktop users on planet Earth while Linux is, you live in an alternate reality.

If you think Windows 11 is 'widely acceptable' then let's agree to differ. <grin>

> Microsoft's full-screen reminders – upgrade to Windows 11 are back

Even if you filter *.microsoft.com and other domains in firewall ?

I think I just read a news article about Windows advertising about the many notifications on Macs?

Saw one yesterday for the first time.

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