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Comment by massysett | Hacker News Reader

I went to a restaurant that not only had the QR code menu, but also insisted that we order and pay on the phone. We had trouble getting the website to load. An employee told us to try using the restaurant's wifi. Eventually one of us got the website working but the other didn't, so we all ordered and paid on one phone. Despite seeing all our struggles, the staff did not say "oh, we'll just order it for you in the system" - I think they had no way to place orders and process payments directly.

I will never return to that restaurant. If a restaurant wants to require this sort of impersonal ordering, it should at least provide its own equipment that is hooked to the proper network - like a stand-up kiosk (some sandwich counters in gas stations do this) or a wireless at-table device (Olive Garden and Chili's.) If I ever go to another restaurant and they tell me to order on my phone, I will just leave.

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I've been to restaurants like this. I have to download an app, or navigate a mobile website to order food and pay: it's a terrible customer experience. It's not convenient, it's not pleasant. If I wanted an impersonal and unfriendly experience, completely mediated through an app, I could just stay home and order Doordash.

I think somebody must have made a bundle selling this kind of system to restaurants during COVID, and during an extreme situation like that, it may have seemed like a solution. But afterwards, it's just a strike against the restaurant. To me at least.

I went to an Italian restaurant while visiting London and sat for 30 minutes before asking why no one was taking my order; they said, oh, you have to order online. But there were no signs or anything. So, the next two nights, I went to the other Italian place next door, which was old school, and took orders from a server. Food was better, too. Technology is usually a good thing, but not when I'm hungry.

“Technology is usually a good thing, but not when I'm hungry”

True. But when you’re already drunk and stoned, it’s a personal challenge.

> Technology is usually a good thing

You must be young

The one thing I like the most when I'm hungry is an I.T. problem.

> If I ever go to another restaurant and they tell me to order on my phone, I will just leave.

100%

Those systems are actively hostile to customers. There are three restaurants (that I've been to) in my town that starting doing this, and I won't go back to them as long as they keep it up. Which might mean forever, as I don't think I'd know if they stop using them in future.

Had similar experiences. This is why they need to bring the proper folks to think through the problem - digital is great until it doesn't work and paper is just less of a pain for everyone. Also, costs a lot less!

Reminds me of a UX course I took many years ago at uni.

As an exercise, we were asked to come up with a solution to help people navigate campus. There were so many suggestions for apps or interactive touch screens. Someone suggested installing terminals where you type where you want to go, and then the floor lights up with directions. Someone else did the same, only it would launch a drone for you to follow.

I suggested hanging printed paper maps on the walls with "you are here" stickers.

What was the result of the exercise? Who's solution was "correct"?

I would install direction indicators, like the ones on the roads.

I think we used the solutions as a vehicle for discussion, rather than settling on a "correct" one. Though I can't recall for certain, it was well over a decade ago.

Yours is a good supplement, whichever method is otherwise used. I'm partial to cheap, analog solutions. Though, installing quality signage on a large campus can quickly become more expensive than a simple app.

> I suggested hanging printed paper maps on the walls with "you are here" stickers

&thumbsup;

I'm not quite sure how having to reprint paper menus is cheaper than a static CDN website. Especially if you have multiple locations.

As much as Restaurants moan and complain about raising prices, having to reprint menus isn't 0 cost whenever they want to add a new menu item, or change the prices.

And then you have to pay your servers to clean them from time to time.

As much as people hate this QR stuff, it's generally better, provided it works. Paper is always reliable, but if you can figure out a static CDN website, and create a QR code for it, it's going to be better for a restaurant that wants to change their menus on a semi frequent basis.

Printing menus only costs about 2 minutes of a dev's time, anyone in the restaurant can do it, there's no need to involve a third party who may not be responsive, and the fact it never fails to work is huge. We tech people often ignore the sheer amount of grief we go through because we're used to fixing things and confident we can. A restaurant owner will experience far higher cognitive load and frustration - and if the site goes down in business time, it's total hell. Not easily worth it.

Restaurants don't often print their menus in house. They get the printed at a print shop. Which takes time, and labor. And unless you're doing them at volume, isn't a negligible costs.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer paper menus. But I see why so many restaurants want to do QR code.

I'm curious what you estimate the transaction cost would be for printing a recyclable paper menu per customer versus the cost of the tech solution per customer.

My gut says the paper is going to win every time. There are also substantial opportunities to improve the experience for your customers with servers being attentive to their tables.

The table top tablets are convenient. They go a long way to allowing a customer to have agency in improving their experience. Back in my college days, my friends and I frequented a pub where each booth had a button that would light up an indicator above our table letting servers know we needed more beer. It was far and above our favorite place to go hang out on weekends. I'm sure it was more useful than just a beer signal LOL but for our use case it was perfect.

You go to a fancier class of restaurants than I do :)

Likely not. The most egregious offenders around me are Mexican restaurants. They often have 4 or 5 double sided page menus.

> As much as people hate this QR stuff, it's generally better, provided it works

I can see it being better for the restaurant. I don't see how it's better for the customers, even if it works.

I can Ctrl+F on a web menu. I have to manually scan to find stuff in a paper menu for one.

> I can Ctrl+F on a web menu.

On your smartphone? I'm not talking about looking at a menu from home, I'm talking about ordering at the table.

In any case, not being a fan of the Cheesecake Factory, I can't remember the last time that I saw a restaurant menu that spanned more than two pages. I don't think finding what you want on such a short menu is particularly problematic.

However, this may point out a critical difference: what sort of restaurant you prefer. Ones with novel-length menus may indeed present different issues.

Regardless, my experience with online-only menus and/or ordering when I'm sitting at the table has been nothing but horrible. My solution is to not go to restaurants that do this. It's better for my blood pressure that way.

> On your smartphone? I'm not talking about looking at a menu from home, I'm talking about ordering at the table.

Yes, and so am I. If I'm feeling like chicken, it'd be easy to Ctrl+F (or "Find in page" if you want to be specific about the phone function) to look for chicken.

> I don't think finding what you want on such a short menu is particularly problematic.

It generally isn't that bad, but it was a quick off the dome example that comes up particularly in physical documents vs. electronic documents. Some more specific restaurant examples might be to filter out specific allergens or preferences out of dishes: dairy free, gluten free, vegetarian, vegan, etc. Make a smaller menu for people that can't or won't have particular things, without having to print those menus.

> Regardless, my experience with online-only menus and/or ordering when I'm sitting at the table has been nothing but horrible.

The worst one I had was a restaurant that was a bit outside of town that had poor cell reception. I've never personally had many issues with using my phone except poor signal.

I should also mention my personal bias here: if I'm at a restaurant (or any other socializing event), the very last thing I want to be doing is interacting with a screen of any sort. I want to be present and enjoy the people I'm with, not using a computer.

But that's just me, not a criticism of such systems per se.

The ideal, I think, is for restaurants to have both. Printed menus for people like me (the advantage to the restaurant is that they won't lose me as a customer) as well as some sort of online thing for others who prefer that.

I can do Ctrl-Q, Ctrl-C and Alt-F4 depending on the location, and yes I give a Ctrl-F as for QR

>This is why they need to bring the proper folks to think through the problem - digital is great until it doesn't work and paper is just less of a pain for everyone.

There's a reason why pretty much all states use paper ballots instead of electronic-only voting. In both elections and retaurants, paper just works. It has minimal outside dependencies, has few failure modes, and we have processes in place to deal with corner cases.

Sure, electronics are flashier and more efficient, but I think HN can more than appreciate the truth that software and computers are brittle.

> There's a reason why pretty much all states use paper ballots instead of electronic-only voting.

Pretty much all states in the USA. In my country (Brazil), all states use electronic-only voting (it's actually a single system, managed by the federal government). Of course, in the rare cases in which it fails (and the replacement device also fails), the paper backup (traditional paper ballots with a canvas box) is still available.

> It has minimal outside dependencies

That's actually the main issue. As the initial comment said, "[...] it should at least provide its own equipment that is hooked to the proper network [...]", and I would add that it should depend only on a local server, so that it works perfectly even if the WAN connection is misbehaving.

(The Brazilian electronic ballot box is completely offline, it has no network connection at all; voting setup and results are stored into a removable memory card, and also printed into paper through a built-in printer as a backup. Its only outside dependency is power, and it has both a built-in battery and connection ports for an external battery.)

this sounds terrifying. how can one.

And then they still asked for a tip. I hate these kinds of places and actively avoid them.

They need to look at how japan does their electronic ordering - an ipad-esque touch screen, and a rail cart that delivers the sushi directly to your table.

The system can be greatly improved, but I'd still rather interact with people than machines.

All the restaurant order/pay app developers have pivoted to making the flip-around kiosks that charge 20% and up for tipping now, so the QR code app game is dying off apparently. :\

They should have upgraded to the Centurion package.

I'm frankly surprised you stayed as long as you did.

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