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Comment by throwaway22032 | Hacker News Reader

throwaway22032

The common factor in all high trust societies seems to be that they are culturally homogenous.

I disagree. Switzerland is another example of a high-trust society yet roughly a quarter of its residents are foreign. A majority of those foreigners are from the EU/EFTA but if you think that means they're culturally homogenous, I challenge you to feed a German pizza to an Italian or give someone from Suisse romande a Gipfeli and tell them it's a croissant.

I'm not accusing you of this in particular but a common pattern I see is Americans making comments like this because they assume that homogeneity of ethnicity or race means homogeneity of culture. There are in fact very large differences, resulting in conflicts such as WWI and WWII. Things aren't peaceful because everyone is the same, they're peaceful because people have learned to live together peacefully despite those differences.

Is there more homogeneity in their values instead of saying culture?

But the word "culture" is what was used. Not the word "values".

There can be a discussion about whether or not "values" would be a better term. I think that's fair. But switching to a discussion based on values moves the goal posts a bit and we should acknowledge that fact.

I consider them both to be fairly interchangeable in this context, it's obvious that crime isn't linked to whether someone prefers croissants or bratwurst.

So by "homogeneous" you don't really mean homogeneous, you mean upstanding people who don't commit a lot of crime or problems?

Eastern Europe is much more homogeneous than western Europe, there is also more crime and problems there, so I don't see a strong link between the two at all.

I think it's both. If you have two communities that believe they are acting in an upstanding manner, but both have different values, then neither trusts the other.

I do also think though that some cultures, religions etc have "better" moral standards.

The choice to deemphasize the differences is part of the culture that's being spoken of here. Eastern Europe went through the same world wars as Western Europe and yet many parts of it are or recently were still riven with ethnic conflict. The Danes and Swiss, especially the native-born and -raised ones, but also those who've joined and assimilated by choice, have broad agreement on the questions of societal organization, conflict resolution, etc. That is a cultural fabric which many other countries lack and which may not always be there even in Denmark and Switzerland.

I'm British, not American.

The culture I am speaking of here is not whether Italians put pineapples on pizza or not.

Denmark is not culturally homogenous and it wasnt histocally.

Denmark values cultural homogeneity enough to mandate that children over the age of one in high-immigrant areas formally designated as ghettoes attend 25 hours per week of public daycare including instruction in "democracy, equality and major Danish holidays such as Christmas" under the threat of losing government benefits [1]. By western standards, this strikes me as a strong commitment to cultural homogeneity.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1IT1EN/

Nah, thats not Denmark, thats a particular racist government

Voted in by the Danish people.

Let me introduce into the concept of the national minority of Germans and also Jews live in Danmark. (Both aren't typical Danish culture). Do you know the concept of national minorities?

It cannot by homogeneity by itself. Poland, my home country, is homogeneous, but in a shitty way.

There's a different type of homogeneity I think people are referring to.

My experience is not proof of anything, I get that. But I've worked closely with both danish and polish people and there's something to be said about a certain type of "danishness". I can't really articulate it, however it's the largest complain I hear. I would compare it to being in a cult (having never been in a cult though). Personally I find it very weird.

So are a lot of African countries.

It's culture.

Scandinavian cultures consistently rank the best.

Denmark?

Culturally homogeneous?

I'm not sure you've actually been to Denmark. Culturally homogeneous is not what I would call it.

I'm interested in what you're comparing against. Denmark is typically towards the bottom of any measure of cultural or ethnic diversity - e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...

I have been to Denmark many times and it strikes me as considerably more homogenous than the UK or the US.

It's funny how little time it takes to go from "cultural" to "ethnic". Say what you think instead of using whistles: you think that Denmark conforms to your racially focused worldview, that it's "pure", or whatever. Am I correct?

Funnily enough, Denmark is a few places below France in "ethnic fractionalization", yet somehow, racists worldwide insist that France has become a shithole because of immigration.

It’s not a “whistle.” Culture is virtually co-extensive with ethnicity in most places in the world. I come from a country whose name literally just translates into “country of $ethnic_group.” To the point where the largest country in the world, China, has lumped myriad different populations into the ethnic grouping of “Han Chinese” to cultivate cultural uniformity.

> a country whose name literally just translates into “country of $ethnic_group.”

FYI, this is the case with Denmark as well (as long as you permit Dane to be an ethnic group)

Is Denmark named after Danes or are Danes named after Denmark.

And "England" - land of the Angles (whence is derived the Anglo- part of Anglo-Saxon).

I'm not sure what the complaint is here. I don't mind saying outright that I believe ethnicity is deeply intertwined with culture and that the two concepts are inseperable. Ethnic groups are essentially defined by their shared heritage, experiences and culture. When we talk about cultural diversity, we inevitably also discuss the ethnic diversity of a population.

I really don't think that is a controversial position, but clearly you disagree.

Might be relative to your baseline, but it's one of the most common complaints I hear among immigrants.

Not only that but the huge social pressure to conform especially in work settings.

Not necessarily fully homogeneous, but with a pretty wide common base.

To trust someone is to predict their actions in a number of the most important aspects, and these actions must be in agreement with your values and expectations. It's most easily achieved when the key values are shared, and even easier when cultural backgrounds are also shared. (It, of course, works if you trust people like yourself, which is not always the case, curiously. Moscow, Russia is about as diverse a place as NYC, but with a markedly lower level of trust.)

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