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tomjen3

It is only 'worth it' because your genes needs you to protect the next generation.

Rationally there is no point in having children at all.

And speaking statistically, research shows that parents are no more happy than are those who are not parents.

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So what you're saying is you were a complete waste of time and your parents would have been better off without you?

Seriously - I'm not trolling or trying to be abusive. It seems to me that's literally what you're saying.

Life isn't rational. Pleasure isn't rational. In the grand scheme of things, no achievements are significant or meaningful. But that's no way to live a life, IMHO. I know I'm far happier with my children than at any other time in my life, and I only had them when I was in my mid 30s, so I have plenty of perspective on life with them and without.

Yes it was hard work, but so are most things worth doing in this world. I may not really believe that which does not kill you makes you stronger, but I some of the hardest things I've done in life (armed service, relationships, children) have enriched me the most as a person.

I can't say the same is true for everyone. We all have different hopes and needs, desires and goals. I'm happy with mine, and sincerely hope yours work out as well for you.

While my parents would probably not agree, I could make a pretty good case they would have been personally better off without me. The stress of parenting was a major factor in their divorce, with the result that they each experienced years of deep pain, unhappiness, and loneliness. And they are each much less financially secure as they approach retirement than they would have been otherwise. In addition there is a huge range of experiences that they have missed because they needed to be my parent.

Opportunity cost cuts both ways. Parents would say that nonparents don't know what they are missing, but the opposite is true as well. I know couples who decided against kids, who have had amazing experiences together that they could not have otherwise managed or afforded. You might believe that those experiences can't compare to being a parent, but without experiencing them yourself, how can you really know?

I think that maybe tomjen3 is reacting to the (oft-repeated) idea that anyone who says that they don't want kids simply hasn't realised that they're wrong.

I don't doubt that the majority of people want kids. I imagine that at some point hormones will kick in that make me want to, but it hasn't happened. So, the idea of having children is awful, as far as I'm concerned. Yet I am told again and again that "one you look into their eyes...". What if you're wrong, though? Having a child is a one-way street, I'd hate to have one and then realise I don't have the same satisfaction about it that others do.

Fair enough. I've always known I wanted children eventually. I don't want to just live in a house, I want to live in a home. I want grandchildren. I want people who love me around me when I'm old and grey. Sure that comes at a price, but in the context of a whole life, not an enormous one. For me.

Yeah, that is what I am saying -- but then my parents have never been that rational.

> In the grand scheme of things, no achievements are significant or meaningful

I'd scale that back a bit and say "it's entirely possible none of your achievements (or your children's) will be seen as 'significant or meaningful' to others". But the achievements of people like Norman Borlaug or Alexander Fleming have had a profound impact on the entire world, so when I see "no achievements matter" it gives me pause.

I'll get back to you on that in 50 million years.

"And speaking statistically, research shows that parents are no more happy than are those who are not parents."

"Contrary to recent scholarship and popular belief, parents experience greater levels of happiness and meaning in life than people without children, according to researchers from the University of California, Riverside, the University of British Columbia and Stanford University. Parents also are happier during the day when they are caring for their children than during their other daily activities, the researchers found in a series of studies conducted in the United States and Canada. [...] The findings are among a new wave of research that suggests that parenthood comes with relatively more positives, despite the added responsibilities. [...] The consistency of their findings across all three studies 'provides strong evidence challenging the widely held perception that children are associated with reduced well-being.'" [1]

These findings are from this paper, entitled In Defense of Parenthood: Children Are Associated With More Joy Than Misery [2], to be published in Psychological Science. [3]

From the abstract, "The results indicate that, contrary to previous reports, parents (and especially fathers) report relatively higher levels of happiness, positive emotion, and meaning in life."

[1] http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/...

[2] (Note: PDF) http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~sonja/papers/NKEDLinpress.pdf

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Science_%28journ...

It also depends on age and marital status. Young couples tend to be less happy with children, according to this study. I'd bet it also depends simply on how strongly the individuals want children. If you don't feel like you want kids, then it's probably a bad idea to have them.

> Rationally there is no point in having children at all

Nonsense. When used as service animals, children have several advantages over the alternatives. They can be trained to do much more than dogs, for example, have a longer service life, and when they get too big to keep safely they yield more meat after first training their successors for you.

Rationally, there is no point in a lot of things (up to and including just sitting idle as a respiring organism). Do you get your sustenance from an IV bag of the basic chemicals your body needs to survive, or do you eat food that you enjoy the taste of? Do you cover yourself with a burlap sap, or do you wear clothing of a design you prefer? Do you get to work on your own locomotive power (walk, ride bicycle) or use a vehicle?

Variety is the spice of life. We do things that we find intellectually and emotionally stimulating.

Apparently it's all been downhill since we were algae.

I don't know about that, but I'm beginning to suspect the whole central nervous system idea may have been misguided.

Rationally there's no point in living at all.

I've found it's a good idea to avoid thinking too hard at the level you're taking.

  Rationally there is no point in having children at all.

Rationally there is no point doing a startup.

I think what you're missing is the emotion, the meaning, and the beauty of having children. And sure, if you leave all that out by willfully ignoring it, then your point makes sense. One could argue that, by the same token, living is just to protect and create the next generation and rationally has no point.

it kind of doesn't have a point. your only option is to believe it does and convince yourself that you have a reason to exist. yeah, it's a glum perspective - you're either depressed or irrational.

expecting a child in 2 months. i'll see how that will affect my view on the world ^_^

And speaking statistically, research shows that parents are no more happy than are those who are not parents.

[citation needed]

Also, since we're being rational and all, define happiness. Contrast it with "fulfillment".

This is answered here: http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=4038777

Short version: Basically, the evidence is to the contrary. Parents are "more happy."

Actually, it's not so cut and dried. I don't have a formal reference to hand, but this is discussed in the last chapter of Stumbling on Happiness - I can dig up the reference if required. Basically, what seems to happen is that having kids leads to many really extreme experiences - first steps, first words, as well as the sort of terrible experiences talked about in this article. We tend to remember these extreme experiences, particularly the good ones, much more than washing nappies every day, and that leads people to report a level of happiness that isn't borne out if you get them to record how happy they are at random times on random days where they're much more likely to be washing nappies.

None of which really matters, of course. If you want kids you'll probably love having them, and if you don't you'll probably be happier without them.

> Actually, it's not so cut and dried.

Nothing ever is, but the GP asked for a citation, and I provided one, and a short version for those in a rush.

"Rationally there is no point in having children at all"

What does that even mean?

Is it "rational" to stay alive? (isn't it only "worth it" because your genes order you not to kill yourself?)

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