Comment by rendall | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rendall | Hacker News Reader

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> Deplorable though it is, it gets into a different topic

I am going to argue something different, and I would like you to seriously entertain the idea. The argument is: anti-Semitic harassment and anti-Zionism are part-and-parcel.

Consider: imagine for the sake of argument a universe that is exactly like ours, except in that universe, Israel is prosecuting the war in Gaza reasonably well, as perfectly as it is possible to prosecute any war. They actually do minimize civilian deaths, not commit any war crimes or genocide, ensure that aid gets where it needs to go. They simply want to get rid of Hamas. In that universe, the war is actually a measured and rational response to the Hamas provocations of that universe, October 7th actually happened, etc.

Please answer honestly: in that universe, how do you think the world responds? Does Hamas still claim genocide? Does the "Gazan Ministry of Health" still issue a daily death toll that is strangely absent of combatants? Does the BBC and al-Jazeera, et. al. still quote those statistics with neither qualification nor caveat? Does South Africa still take Israel to ICJ? Does the UN security council still issue resolutions against Israel without reference to Hamas or the hostages?

I believe that the answer to those questions would be identical to this universe. Would you agree? If not, what is the mechanism by which the world could tell the difference? What trustworthy organization would impartially inform us all that there is no genocide in a way that you yourself would believe it?

I believe most anti-Zionists would behave quite the same in that universe, because for them, Israel's existence is a problem, and the accusation of genocide is a tool in its dismantling.

I’d like to answer that question, and I think you’re not gonna like the answer.

I believe the response would be similar but not identical. There would be mass protests, just like there were in 2021, 2018, 2014, etc. I also participated in these protests. These protests would be smaller but still loud. Student movements would also call out their universities and demand boycott, just like in 2021, 2018, etc. But we probably wouldn’t see as many students participating, nor would it spread to as many school.

We would still see an ICJ case, however it wouldn’t be South Africa charging Israel of genocide. It would be the General Assembly charging Israel of apartheid. This case is also ongoing in our universe, and and was agreed to before Oct 7. Delegations would use that case to voice discontent with that universe’s version of the Gaza atrocities, no matter how scaled back it would be. But I think they would stop short of calling it a genocide (assuming Israel wouldn’t be committing one in that Universe). The security council would vote on a ceasefire and the US would veto it, just like in 2021, 2018, etc. The general assembly would also vote on and agree to to a ceasefire.

The BBC and Al Jazeera would quote statistics straight from the Hamas run Gaza health ministry, the BBC would say Hamas run, but Al Jazeera wouldn’t, just like in our universe. People would criticize BBC for that from both the left and the right (just like in our universe).

The truth about this universe is that Israel has been braking international humanitarian laws for a very long time, and the world is tired of it. In this alternative universe, the world would be equally tired of it, and would condemn Israel for it. Settler policies, apartheid, constant bombing campaigns in Gaza, constant raids on the West Bank, etc. all of that would be the reason the world would condemn Israel in your alternative universe. Israel’s settler colonial and apartheid policies would be a problem. And the accusations there of would be just.

> The truth about this universe is that Israel has been braking international humanitarian laws...

What laws?

Usually when people answer that question, they just refer to a law ("look up the Geneva Conventions") and then disappear. If you could, please actually quote the relevant paragraphs and, even better, an actual court ruling.

Some of them are listed here:

https://www.icj-cij.org/case/186

You literally just sent a link without reading it as I asked you not to do. Please do the work of actually understanding what it is that you're linking and then explaining it. You will see that this is not whatever you seem to think it is.

This link is to the ICJ case 186: Legal Consequences arising from the Policies and Practices of Israel in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem

It was submitted to the court after the UN General Assembly resolution A/RES/77/247 was approved by a majority vote of 98 approved vs. 17 against and 52 absent. Here is a summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_consequences_arising_fro...

This link contains all written and spoken testimonies, as well as related documents and news from the UN. In it you will find several examples of international humanitarian law broken by Israel without consequences. You will find several UN resolutions ignored by Israel without consequences. This case seeks to establish which consequences Israel should face from decades of this behavior. The ICJ accepted this case, and proclaims jurisdiction.

During the oral testimonies you will find statements and conclusions such as this from South Africa:

> The available evidence indicates that Israel is responsible for inhuman acts which fall within the ambit of Article 2(a), (c), (d) and (f) of the Apartheid Convention. [1] (Paragraph 115)

Here is another example from the same oral testimony:

> The establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories is considered as illegal by the international community as they are in violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Paragraph 6 of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention provides that “the Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies”. t therefore follows that any legislation authorising settlements or the extension of settlements “adopted by Israel to facilitate or set up settlements would be in violation of Article 43

I gave you this link because it is full of legal experts from all over the world citing humanitarian law and explaining how Israel is breaking them. This case would have been ongoing today even without Oct 7 and without the Gaza genocide. This case and the number of written and oral testimonies, and the content of these testimonies, is proof that the world is fed up with Israel’s behavior towards the Palestinians.

1: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186...

This is not a judgment. It's an accusation by South Africa. Neither more nor less. The ICJ has not rendered any decision yet.

Ok, I've tried to get a coherent argument out of you and I have just about given up. If you'd like to have the final word, feel free. I'll read whatever you have to say, but probably will not respond.

My point was that the world is fed up with Israel’s behavior, and I gave this ICJ case as an example of how fed up the world is. This case is an action the world has taken in the hopes that Israel will finally have to face consequences for their violations of international humanitarian laws. You asked which ones, and the answer is in the case, as described by experts.

> The ICJ has not rendered any decision yet.

I know, however the world believes Israel has violated several UN orders, and is taking action based on that belief.

> It's an accusation by South Africa.

It is not. I cited two paragraphs from the written statement given by South Africa. This is more like a witness statement than accusations. South Africa gave Oral Testimonies reflecting this written statement[1] (page 10)

The accusations were done by the General assembly back in December 2022 (read the actual accusations here[2]). 87 countries votes in favor of these accusations, 26 against, and 53 abstentions

The reason I’m citing these is that actual legal experts formed a consensus about these and submitted them to the world’s highest court, which accepted the case. This is not just my opinion, but the opinion of several legal experts spanning most of the world. Like I said, you may not like it, but the world is taking actions against Israel’s human rights violations. This would have happened even without the Gaza Genocide being a part of this reality.

[1]: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/186...

[2]: https://www.undocs.org/A/RES/77/247

EDIT: And if you want examples of specific laws which Israel has definetly broken, with an ICJ judgement to prove it. Then read case 131 https://www.icj-cij.org/case/131 which ruled Israel to be in violation of certain International Humanitarian Law by building the border wall, which still stands today and is cited in the resolution I cited above https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/n04/419/86/pdf/n04419...

This is just one of many examples of international human rights violations of Israel, some of which have the backing of an ICJ court behind it.

In this purely hypothetical universe -- in which the Israeli government was acting in an at least arguably rational fashion in regard to securing a timely release of the hostages, and protecting the security of citizens otherwise; in which it wasn't concurrently stepping up its rampage in the West Bank because it thinks the world will be distracted by the much greater number of bodies piling up in Gaza; in which there was no Dahiya Doctrine --

What we have here is the "They're just going to criticize / hate Israel no matter what it does" defense which has been raised as a blanket response to pretty much any robust criticism of what Israel does, for several decades. Or to paraphrase only slightly how you put it: "Israel's existence is the problem, serious criticisms about what it does are tools for its dismantling."

So to answer your question - of course no, I don't buy it. And yes, fundamentally the current response would be very different. There wouldn't be an ICJ case; there wouldn't be calls for sanctions against units like Netzah Yehuda for doing what they're currently doing out here in the real, actual world; etc.

If not, what is the mechanism by which the world could tell the difference? What trustworthy organization would impartially inform us all that there is no genocide in a way that you yourself would believe it?

The same organizations that are the obvious answer to this question (independent journalists and human rights groups in and outside of Israel; UN bodies; forensic analysis teams, etc).

In short, yes - in this science fiction universe, it would be a very different response. You're not going to agree of course, and that's fine.

Your other bullet points seem to be ancillary: no one is acting on what Hamas is claiming about the ongoing genocide, for example. And the Gaza Health Ministry numbers are a huge red herring (even Israeli military intelligence considers them to be generally reliable and uses them in their briefings; US officials believe the real numbers may be even higher, etc).

> Your other bullet points seem to be ancillary: no one is acting on what Hamas is claiming about the ongoing genocide, for example. And Gaza Health Ministry numbers are a huge red herring (even Israeli military intelligence considers them to be generally reliable and uses them in their briefings; US officials believe the real numbers may be even higher, etc).

Far from being "ancillary" or a "red herring", the Gaza Health Ministry statistics are central to the accusations against Israel of genocide. Weird you would even say that.

And, no, neither Israel nor "Israeli intelligence" considers Gazan Health Ministry statistics accurate [1]. That's another weird thing to say. As for "US officials believe the real numbers may be even higher, etc" I only found a single quote from a single US official, from one Barbara Leaf, Assistant Secretary of State, implying this [2]. I also found a quote from the same Voice of America article that "President Joe Biden has openly questioned figures from the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is run by Hamas, which the U.S. classifies as a terrorist group" so...

It's odd that you made so many hrm... exaggerations in such a short response. It's almost like you don't care about the accuracy of your statements? Surely that cannot be true.

> etc

Etc? What is the etc? You wouldn't have only two things to say and then write "etc" to imply there's more, would you? I refuse to believe it.

[1] https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fat...

[2] https://www.voanews.com/a/us-stands-firm-with-israel-amid-co...

The key part of Leaf's acknowledgment (which came some weeks after what Biden said) is where she added that the US has sources from a "variety of folks who are on the ground". Meaning they had independent confirmation that had been vetted by internal analysts.

Lol. Noo... you have no more context than I do. You're just making shit up.

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