New iPad Pro with M4 chip and Apple Pencil Pro | Hacker News Reader

New iPad Pro with M4 chip and Apple Pencil Pro

apple.com

114 pointspraseodym289 comments

Apple's sections about the environment in their announcements always makes me feel like I'm being gaslit as they mention anything but repair and supporting the consumer's right to reduce and re-use

The iPad is the notable omission from the Self Service Repair thing they are doing. I suspect it's just classified as disposable/recyclable.

(yes this annoys me)

The larger one is 5.1mm thick. There aren't separate components any more, it's a smear of glue with some silicon and batteries suspended in it.

AH could that be why their "thinnest iPad" advertisement was to crush usable piano, metronome, etc? the iPad division // department does NOT respect reuse?

I think the source of your sort of unconscious discomfort is because corporate speak is not about truth or justice or any moral/ethical system, it's about reputation-management of the firm and profit. They usually won't make direct provable lies, but will leave out any information that does not boost their reputation even if it's relevant or contradicts their messaging. But importantly, they are appealing to a sense of moral virtue when they brag about environmental responsibility or privacy, even if they aren't taking a lens of truth and justice to their analysis and messaging, but a biased one that ultimately favors profit.

This dissonance in tone vs real motive is really painful to people who care about nuance and truth and moral good, because it means they muddy the waters of what is right and wrong and confuse us.

They're bold enough to say they're carbon neutral.

"Today, Apple is carbon neutral for global corporate operations, and by 2030, plans to be carbon neutral across the entire manufacturing supply chain and life cycle of every product."

Carbon neutral never really meant anything anyway.

And Apple's "Green" talk is just theater (well, just like everybody elses in tech, fashion, cars, etc).

Their whole business lies in making and selling more stuff, and getting people to replace them often with shiny new ones.

What’s the opposite of carbon neutral? That is to say, how much more damage could Apple be doing to the environment if they ended all of their current “Green talk” practices? They’re a business and they’re going to sell things no matter what, would you rather have them do nothing to mitigate the environmental damage, or have them do something?

They don't care. You don't think Apple with their trillions of dollars maybe could make a version of the iPhone version that's upgradable? The worst thing is the industry follows their lead so everything they don't do, the industry does as well.

Apple comes out with 4 versions of the iPhone every year right? How about a fifth version that is 2mm thicker with the ability to upgrade. This is the wealthiest company on the planet in history and they are doing almost nothing.

I'll quote myself from elsewhere in this thread:

> Personally I think it’s better to do some good for the environment than no good for the environment. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. They should absolutely let us repair every device, but I’m glad they make the environmental efforts they currently do as well.

>> Personally I think it’s better to do some good for the environment than no good for the environment.

"Some good for the environment" is 0.1% better in some marginal areas (packaging , recycled X material, bundled cables, the stickers in the box it announced it will stop this year, and so on) combined with 20% worse in other areas (tens of millions of devices) for a net 19.9% worse.

And, yes, 19.9% worse is technically better than 20% worse.

Like "technically" removing a bucket of water from a flooding river is less flood than leaving it all.

Practically it's worse. It does nothing to stop the catastrophe, and even worse, this greenwashing is giving false assurances, which help maintain and compound the 19.9% worse year over year (as opposed to people demanding they do something real).

And of the course the hypocrisy, encouraged this way, doesn't stop with Apple.

I won’t argue with these because I assume these percentages are 19.9% made up.

They're clearly meant to be illustrative, not specific... except if you thought the argument was that Apple's damage to the environment is precisely 19.9% of some yet unspecified unit

wooooosh

The wealthiest is Microsoft and can you provide sources for your “knowledge“?

The point is that becoming "carbon neutral" by buying carbon offsets while encouraging rampant consumerism is not good for environment.

Carbon offsets are about as credible as the oil industry giants saying they don't really pollute very much at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_offsets_and_credits

Unpopular opinion here but Apple’s approach to environmental stuff is more right than wrong. The biggest environmental impact of devices are in the manufacturing and disposel of them. At Apple’s scale all of the things they do add up. Their use of recycled materials, elimination of certain more toxic materials, and even just making lighter products and packaging all help. At a minimum, those efforts are better than not having them and seem to be more than any other manufacturer is willing to do. Apple has set a goal to have a closed production loop, using only materials that they have recycled from older ones. That’s really ambitious and I doubt they’ll get there 100% but once again, what other company is even trying that?

Usually the only thing people can point to for Apple not being as green as they’d like is the repairability of the products. I’m willing to bet that whatever additional waste that is created by that is more than offset by having devices that last longer. Devices that require fewer repairs and have good software support allows either you, or whoever gets your old devices, to keep using the same device for longer. Every device has a lifecycle, making it as long as possible is the best way to avoid environmental impacts.

They're doing a horrible job. You're right that the biggest environmental impact is manufacturing and disposal. But keeping a device running longer is better than manufacturing a new one from recycled parts . The way Apple handles storage and memory means ENTIRE devices need to be replaced when a new larger SSD or a few more gigs of memory are all that's really needed to keep a device in service for a few years longer. Not to mention stuff like just being able to actually replace the keyboard in any reasonable fashion, etc.

There's really very very little reason for all the Macs at least to not have M.2 slots besides letting Apple save pennies on SSD controller costs and convincing users to spring for overpriced upgrades. Even the iPad could probably use an M.2 SSD! The Surface Pros do!

If it takes 2% more materials to make the components upgradeable, but only 1% of users will do it over the device's lifetime, then that's a net loss for the environment.

I don't like it either and I'm not sure I agree, but that's probably their logic.

I think their logic is it makes 2% more profit not to do it.

Oh certainly, their two greatest motivations to build things that way are:

1. Make devices thinner and sleeker

2. Capture value from power users who would otherwise buy the base model and upgrade it themselves

But that's probably how they justify it as not environmentally harmful.

They need not be mutually exclusive conclusions.

Apples devices are in the field longer than most OEMs, especially mobile devices you realize?

They don’t just trash it when you trade it, they resell as used.

And if you look at resellers on places like eBay they tend to sell upgraded models with increased amounts of storage and RAM if they can.

What does that have to do with it? They’ll sell whatever stock they have - most people end up ordering upgraded models so the field split is skewed.

You’re reaching acting like Apple is purposefully creating environmental damage when they do by far more than any other OEM on this planet to minimize their impact. They should be praised for doing anything at all in the face of no competition motivation, not judged for “you can do more!!! >:(“.

They absolutely haven't. It's laughable to suggest they've done the most when they've started trends like gluing down batteries, riveting keyboards, etc. Using slightly more recycled parts in the chassis and removing power adapters from the box does not make up for making devices less repairable.

Apple is known to shred devices.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-04-18/apple-iph...

https://www.vice.com/en/article/yp73jw/apple-recycling-iphon...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/07/apple-g...

I agree their devices last "long" but if they were upgradable they would last much longer.

> The way Apple handles storage and memory means ENTIRE devices need to be replaced when a new larger SSD or a few more gigs of memory are all that's really needed to keep a device in service for a few years longer.

Most iPads are vastly overpowered and last for a long time. If someone needs more power/storage, then one usually passes them to the next person which might use it for many more years.

My old iPad Air 2 from 2024 is still used.

> Even the iPad could probably use an M.2 SSD!

Most users don't need that. I'm using fixed storage in my Macs (and iPads) for years. I've attached additional storage to USB-C for many years without problems.

> Most iPads are vastly overpowered and last for a long time.

Which is why it's a shame they have poor repairability

> My old iPad Air 2 from 2024 is still used.

That doesn't really make a case for the device's longevity :-)

True, the thing is from 2014.

Ah, that sounds quite a bit better!

My original iPad Pro from 2015 is still used and is still perfect for not just everything I want to do with it but always has no issue with new stuff... except, Apple finally decided that it won't get OS upgrades, and so the few bits of software on it that I use are going to rot -- even the web browser these days doesn't work long as people no longer believe in progressive enhancement... the few-year old version of iOS on my iPhone would just render blank white pages for major websites, which is what finally forced me to upgrade: the device has devolved to not much more than a dumb phone -- and so this iPad, with its glorious large screen, will soon be trash.

If I could install an alternative third-party web browser -- though it would have to be one by someone who also understood the importance of supporting the old OS -- or if I could pitch in and help maintain the operating system myself, even using binary patches if required (look into who I am if you laugh here, and then stop laughing: we can do quite a lot without source code) I would be able to keep using it, but only Apple can save it now, and they have absolutely zero in incentive to do so.

Yes, but android devices still have objectively inferior software support lifecycles. They have objectively inferior parts-supply lifecycles too, Android tablets and android phones do not offer an m.2 port either, or swappable memory, or whatever the silly ask is this week.

iPhones are literally compared against objective perfection while all their competitors are worse on every single repair-lifecycle outcome. More iOS devices are used for longer than most android devices in the real world, and your n=1 cherry-picked example of your android tablet from 2008 isn’t really a useful or meaningful rebuttal.

I don't understand where this 2008 Android tablet storyline came from? I didn't mention Android, nor did I mention 2008, nor do I believe that there existed an Android tablet of any form in 2008?... I certainly owned some early Android Honeycomb tablets, but neither they--nor my iPads from that era, by the way--are still usefully in service. I honestly do not at all understand what you are replying to :(.

I am just saying that Apple has gone out of their way to lock me out of being able to maintain this perfectly good, old iPad Pro. This is interesting as, frankly, the iPad hasn't really aged as a platform now in almost a decade, seemingly as almost no one is making software for it which needs new hardware (...likely in no small part due to Apple's restrictions on the otherwise very-general device, but the reasons don't matter much).

And yeah, sure: I happily agree that Android devices tend to be worse on many of these fronts... but, they also kind of don't matter, as effectively no one buys Android tablets and frankly no one wants to buy an Android tablet ;P which is a fact I don't see changing in the near future. Insisting that I should redirect my frustrations with Apple onto some no-name Android tablet maker is a big distraction from trying to make a difference in the world.

I’m confused by your confusion - not only is it the topic of this thread, it’s also literally the comment you were replying to.

> Most iPads are vastly overpowered and last for a long time. If someone needs more power/storage, then one usually passes them to the next person which might use it for many more years.

like again, this is in the context of tablets. Can you show a current-production model of an expandable, upgradable alternative from a vendor like google or Samsung or similar?

If not, I think it’s pretty clearly just wishful thinking and double-standards. Apple doesn’t need to solve the whole right-to-repair problem by themselves to go above and beyond the very low bar set by the market alternative vendors. Android’s lifecycle is abysmal for repairability and waste in practice - they are even more disposable devices than the iPad, with shorter software lifecycles and shorter parts lifecycles and much lower volume/worse parts commonality.

The wishful ability to install a custom rom and some Amazon knockoff parts doesn’t actually make that a significant factor within the actual realized lifecycle of these devices.

Does Samsung and apple market their products as eco friendly though? If they do, it went entirely over my head, but I'm usually not really paying attention to their marketing material either.

But let's address your argument itself by applying it to two other companies to see if it holds up: would you consider a "sustainable/green" marketing campaign done by BP, the oil company to be disingenuous, even if they're better then Shell?

I would consider such marketing by them downright offensive and thats why the comparison to android devices seem pretty useless to me, honestly.

In comparison to pretty much all android devices, Apples are better from an environmental perspective. I mean most android devices had an EOL cycle of roughly 2 years until 2023 iirc... But that doesnt change the fact that apple is hardly doing anything either, which makes their marketing claims disingenuous (at least to me).

They don't "last for a long time". I have an ipad that is barely five years old and no longer receives OS updates. You can't even install apps on it (like Netflix, or Youtube) because the OS is "unsupported."

Apple is running a HaaS (Hardware as-a Service) and your subscription is somewhere between two to three years.

> I have an ipad that is barely five years old and no longer receives OS updates. You can't even install apps on it (like Netflix, or Youtube) because the OS is "unsupported."

I’m currentLy using a 2016 iPad Pro (so 8 years running) and I use it for both Netflix and YouTube. It’s also still getting updates. Next year will be the first where it seems to have security updates only as well.

Edit: I also just booted up an even older iPhone 5 and both apps work

> seem to be more than any other manufacturer is willing to do

I would agree if you change "any" to "most". Here are some examples of "any" manufacturers that are willing to do more:

- For tablets and phones: https://www.shift.eco/en/impact/

- For laptops: https://frame.work/sustainability

- For phones: https://www.fairphone.com/en/story/

Until Apple makes their devices with user replaceable batteries all their environmental efforts are falling short. Making consumable part -- a battery -- an integrated component that requires special tools and training to replace is environmental crime in name of planned obsolesce. Everything else Apple does are second-order effects.

Yeah their Watch bands are made of recycled plastic and they don’t use leather anymore. But the quality of the bands is often so bad that you have to replace them after a year or even only some months.

And the phone cases became overpriced junk.

I bought a braided solo loop of theirs and it became stretched out within 5 months. I didn't do anything but take it off my hand each night to charge it. If that's the norm, and the Apple store employee made it seem that way, they shouldn't even sell them.

Same experience here.

Personally I think it’s better to do some good for the environment than no good for the environment. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. They should absolutely let us repair every device, but I’m glad they make the environmental efforts they currently do as well.

Repulsive, how the FIRST introductory scene today was them CRUSHING perfectly usable products.

* https://twitter.com/nobi/status/1787888454849966295

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntjkwIXWtrc

They crushed paint, a piano, toys, and much much more.

All in the name of a convenient marketing ploy around "thinness." Seems anti-reuse to me.

I genuinely don't grok who is buying iPad Pros; outside of maybe artists & graphic designers? Maybe? But even there, wacomb-like tablets on Mac is still super popular, and the iPad Air in a bigger size is going to be crazy popular.

A 13" iPad Pro with keyboard is $1650. And you can't even get the nanotexture glass below 1TB; so that + keyboard is approaching $2300.

Who is buying this?

Currently an iPad Air with the Magic Keyboard is my main personal computer. I’ve found that it’s the most enjoyable device to use for internet browsing. It replaced my Chromebook, which had that role before. Like the Chromebook, it’s got a physical keyboard, so it’s good for typing. The cantilever also places the screen closer to my hands, helping me to fluidly switch between keyboard and touch navigation, which both work well. The browser is noticeably snappier than my Chromebook was, although that might come down to a better processor generation.

A secondary use-case is watching movies while traveling. I did my taxes on there too - Google sheets, scanning receipts from the camera into the Files app, all work well. I plugged in a monitor for that.

The one thing I’m not doing on there is coding. I only do that on my work laptop. If I had personal programming projects, I’d surely be using a laptop that lets me run my own code as my personal computer.

The price for the new Pro sure is high, but I’m tempted. The phone’s 120Hz OLED has spoiled me. Surely they sell more of the cheaper models, but they might as well make a halo device to rake in as much margin as they can from people who are willing to pay for the best.

Why not use a Macbook Air for a full experience?

I have a MacBook from work so I do compare them. It’s a worse user experience. No touchscreen, screen is lower and further from my eyes. It’s physically less pleasant to use. There are also some use-cases I can’t even do with the MacBook form factor - eg. on planes, I mount the iPad on the seat in front of me so I watch movies at eye level. Sometimes I hold the iPad in my hands when in pure reading consumption mode.

>I have a MacBook from work so I do compare them. It’s a worse user experience. No touchscreen

And that matters for coding work because?

>screen is lower and further from my eyes.

The iPad screen doesn't have any fixed position, so what are you comparing it to? iPad propped on an Apple iPad keyboard (which would be even lower)? iPad handheld which would be unusable? iPad set flat on a table? iPad on a stand (if so, what prevents you putting the MacBook on a stand?)

MacBook works great at work! Based on my experience with my work device, it’s as pleasant for casual media consumption.

The Magic Keyboard actually lifts the iPad above the keyboard, which puts it in a better viewing position in laptop-mode than an actual laptop. Every little bit helps when you have creaky tendons and joints.

I've never ever wanted a Macbook, but I'm ok with an iPad Pro.

For me personally, I feel that iPadOS > MacOS, especially for a personal device. Also, the touch screen.

I'm curious what makes you think the MBA is a more "full experience?"

The MBA is permanently affixed to its keyboard: so it can't easily be used for consumption (in bed, on the couch, etc.) The MBA also has no touch screen, and no stylus. The iPad can also ship with a built-in cellular radio. Now I'm carrying an extra tablet, plus an extra hotspot.

That sure sounds like a lot of compromises to me. If I needed more performance I'd be stepping up to a MBP for the active cooling, which pushes us into a different price bracket anyways. If I needed more disk/memory bandwidth I wouldn't even be considering a portable in the first place. (More realistically: I would be using my portable to shell into a more powerful box, and an iPad Pro or even an iPad Air would do that just as well as any MacBook.)

If you need more external I/O, well, I'm not sure I buy that the iPad Pro is a serious compromise over the MBA. It has 40Gb/s of bandwidth and that's _a lot_ for the vast majority of use-cases. My main MBP already sits docked all day via a single thunderbolt cable.

The only reason I would actually choose an MBA over an iPad is that I'm a developer. I place strangely disproportionate value on things like an untrusted boot-chain, kernel extensions, and freedom.[1] I like having the flexibility to be able to bless and enroll my own bootable volumes. I want to be able to tinker with the system partition. I want to introspect the system when things go wrong. The iPad challenges these things by design.

I cannot emphasize this enough: _all of my friends would be lost trying to follow along with the preceding paragraph._ They would look at me like I had two heads. _The above desiderata are not at all representative of the average computer user today._ For most of what I do (media consumption and some content creation) the iPad Pro would do an excellent job, I'd argue better than the MBA. For everything else I do: "iPad Pro vs. MBA" is a false dichotomy, I would not be choosing either of those machines. I would buy a workstation-class device at a minimum.

[1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

> I'm curious what makes you think the MBA is a more "full experience?"

The ability to install apps and third-party browsers without your democratically-elected representatives holding the OEM at gunpoint?

>I'm curious what makes you think the MBA is a more "full experience?" The MBA is permanently affixed to its keyboard: so it can't easily be used for consumption (in bed, on the couch, etc.)

News to me, as it never prevented me from doing exactly that. Like hundreds of millions who don't own a tablet (and I do own some).

Every time I think about buying an iPad, I just find myself wishing there was a legit / better approach to, you know, computing on it.... I don’t do much for fun besides work on things that need compilers, debuggers, dynamic analysis, linking, JIT execution, tracing, and suchlike. All such endeavors are firmly impossible on iOS and iPadOS.

I think touch computers had enormous potential that has mostly been permanently squandered by making them into entertainment devices for users — not owners, and certainly not operators. The product barely even really belongs to you from that perspective.

This is something that Stallman and the Free Software movement got absolutely bang-on: proprietary software seeks to control its users and prevent them from truly owning and operating their computers. It’s almost impossible to overstate how important free computing is, and how much more important it will become in the future if we don’t secure our access to it.

Yeah, you could have a device with the same form factor and UI that also has a normal terminal and can compile its own code. It’s ok for my personal use case but it’s a big limitation and rules out the device for many people.

With the allowing of emulators, there is now an app called 'a-shell' which you can write/compile (at least) c on.. (the built in clang compiles to wasm, vim/emacs only etc).

I expect this to improve, and I've not tried to build any complex software on it (yet).

I think this is essentially a portable terminal, just like the phone. Most of my work on laptop for development is to get on high-powered workstation or servers anyway. For occasionally SSH-ing with tmux session, it’s pretty great (although I can’t swap ctrl with caps, which sucks).

I do wish iPad had something to push me over to replace my laptop for that use case, but I’m too used to windowed environment.

Settings -> general -> keyboard -> hardware keyboard -> modifier keys -> caps lock

I have mine bound to esc since I use vim as my main editor, but ctrl is also an option.

As for the soft keyboard, at least in termius this is remappable in the settings (I think blink also)

Somehow “$1500 portable terminal, with some effort” just doesn’t make me feel burning desire.

There is iSH but it needs to do some insane emulation to offer a linux userspace, and so is quite slow. I have still solved plenty of problems with it, disproving that native iOS is capable on its own, or that ssh/tmux is enough over local environment.

I am basically fed up with my iPad, looking to sell it and buy an Android with termux.

>I don’t do much for fun besides work on things that need compilers, debuggers, dynamic analysis, linking, JIT execution, tracing, and suchlike

Why would you need a table for those things? Isn't a dektop/laptop optimized for those kind of things anyway?

Or you just want to hook some 11" iPad to a monitor and a keyboard, and just use it as a desktop unit?

What difference should it make whether it’s a computer with a built-in touch screen or a computer with a mouse, keyboard, and whatnot? How is one “optimized” for this or that? They’re both just computers. The one running Apple’s software is utterly locked down, is the thing. I would like to be able to compute however I like on my computers, yes.

Heck, maybe it would be interesting to work on touchscreen software on a touchscreen computer in a touch oriented IDE or editor, no?

How is one “optimized” for this or that? They’re both just computers.

Well, a sports car and a truck, and a Mini Cooper and an 18-wheeler are all road vehicles too.

The difference is tradeoffs, optimization, cost, user experience, and so on.

The iPad could indeed get the ability to be used as a Mac (hook cable to hub, perhaps monitor, full macOS etc). It would still not exactly be optimized for that, it would need all the extra stuff, but it would work.

A Macbook with a touch screen not so much. It would either have to be detachable (like some PC models), which comes with certain tradeoffs, limits on construction, materials, battery life, thinness (as the screen would need to be able to work autonomously, thus have the CPU and everything), etc.

Or it could be a laptop with a touch screen (again, like some other PC laptop models), which would give an unatural, unergonomic experience.

>Heck, maybe it would be interesting to work on touchscreen software on a touchscreen computer in a touch oriented IDE or editor, no?

Based on our experience with laptops that have that, not that interesting in the end. There's a reason we don't see people using those PC laptops that have that using them for the touch screen in the wild, and that they haven't really caught on.

Meh a Chromebook let's you run Linux apps thought. I can run full blown IDEs locally without problems. And yes, that is with 8Gb ram, ChromeOS has superb memory management.

Not an artist but the Wacom-like graphic tablets are tethered to the laptop or workstation, with at least two cables (one for power, another for the HDMI) so some artists do prefer the more portable solution of iPad plus that nice Procreate app.

People with government grant or unrestricted access to company money. Already spoke to people wanting to know when they can use their Cost center for one.

mathematicians and physicists who use them for "pen and paper" calculations

Because the pro used to be the largest iPad with a pencil. Now you can get the air instead and "pen and paper" certainly does not need "pro" performance.

As a physicist, the main reason why I chose the Pro version is the refresh rate. It doesn’t distract me when I’m using the pencil.

Also the keyboard when I need to quickly ssh into something and I didn’t bring my laptop. (Not sure if there are non-pro iPads that support them now)

I use my M1 iPad Pro for graphics work (from simple sketches to full illustrations), and for making music with multi-track recording apps. I don't bother with the keyboard since little of my input is text-oriented.

I'm going to. Every digital thing I do outside of my job happens on an iPad Pro and I absolutely love it. I make music in Logic Pro on an M1 iPad Pro - it's hard to overstate how amazing it is to be able to carry around an entire recording studio in such a tactile form factor. I can't get on with desktop DAWs at all.

Musicians, for the purpose of reading sheet music. Wrote about this here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40286085#40288121

If you click the date/timestamp on a comment you can get a direct link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40288121

Thank you

I did not ask "who is buying iPads"; I asked who is buying the iPad Pro, especially now that the Air is available at the 13" size.

One notable difference: Face ID. I know it sounds silly, but it makes it really convenient especially using keyboard.

For which a $50 android tablet will suffice just fine.

Which $50 android tablet?

Any, amazon have several 6GB ram/64GB storage for $50-60 many of them even have a microSD slot for more storage, they'll all do fine for reading PDFs, my first iPad had 32GB storage and it did that task just fine.

Heck they have 4GB/32GB tablets for $30 that would no doubt just about manage running ReadEra or some other PDF viewer with no trouble.

But the most important aspect is the screen size. You're finding $50 android tablets with screen size 13"?

I had a 13” iPad Pro for work and I loved it. It’s basically the size of a standard piece of paper, so reading and writing is very natural.

That being said, I’m getting an iPad Air now that they offer 13”.

I don't have a personal laptop and use iPad Pro instead. I have a work laptop that I only use for work and I never take on vacations with me.

iPad Pro gives me:

- amazing SSH terminal

- ability to download content from streaming services to long-haul flights

- a decent size screen for watching TV in bed (my bedroom has a layout that prevents me from placing TV anywhere)

- a good steam/xcloud client

- when latency is too high for SSH, I have RPi I connect with USB-C to iPad and shows up as Ethernet adapter powered from iPad.

- a few games to play on the iPad itself when away

- I have a thunderbolt dock that my main PC is connected to, I can switch to my iPad. That with Stage Manager gives essentially focus-mode mac.

- nice screen (quality and size) to read things (not books, eInk is king there)

- nice screen to look at recipes while I cook

You might notice that none of these tasks require a powerful CPU, and you will be right. I got iPad Pro because of screen size and thunderbolt. Might switch to the new one because the camera is finally in the right place.

If I could run IntelliJ on iPad, even in remote mode - I wouldn't even think about buying a laptop.

Good call on SSH terminal. I use Prompt all the time to get on my workstation.

iPad Pro 4:3 264ppi screen = unmatched vertical real estate for SSH CLI and text editing, especially with vertical split screen window management.

Years ago there were 4:3 Thinkpads. Then OEMs moved to 16:9 aspect ratios for video content, some claiming that the economics were no longer viable for 4:3 displays. Yet Apple continues to ship millions of 4:3 screens for iPads.

The screen quality is surely good, but why wouldn't an iPad air or Samsung whatever work just as well for all these use cases? Also, it seems that you connect a keyboard, a mouse, a game pad and a display... Cool that it works, but that is very far from out of box experience.

The airs screen was good but not great. Not compared to the 13” pro.

As for peripheral, not at all. My iPad lives mostly in its keyboard folio. I also regularly use a USB-C dock with it for either Ethernet access, HDMI output to hotel TVs, or memory card reading (camera). I know a few people who carry around 8bitdo Bluetooth game controllers for use with all sorts of devices (steam deck, laptop, phone, iPad). If you’re a diehard gamer, it’s well worth it.

> But why wouldn't an iPad air work just as well for all these use cases?

I don't remember whether it had USB-C at the time or not, but it definitely didn't have Thunderbolt, which is a requirement for me.

> Samsung

Same with thunderbolt, but also I can't stand Samsung's version of Android. I wish Pixel Slate kept evolving. The Android tablet experience in general isn't great. Blink terminal is 12/10 experience, there is no app like that for Android. However, on Samsung, I would be able to just install NixOS in VM on the tablet, so there is that.

> Cool that it works, but that is very far from out of box experience.

Well, yes, but first it's just one cable and a game pad that I already had. I didn't buy any of those things specifically for the iPad. For me, it was an out-of-the-box experience.

I'd like to mention that when I got my iPad Pro, I had zero apple products at my house.

Blink really turned me off when they started running some automatic shell script that curl | bash's some static version of mosh from their servers without me noticing in order to 'improve' the experience.

No, don't run anything on my servers thanks. I don't even care if there's an option to turn it off.

Switched to termius, I'll miss being able to use custom fonts but meh.

One segment - old people. It’s a great device - reliable, fast, convenient, and portable. Large screen is a godsend for old guy like me. If you own one, I think you may find it really pleasant to use as side device on your desk.

I had one from 2020, use it all the time over my phone, and I’m upgrading to this one. 512GB though - shame I can’t get the glass :(

I bought one last year to code with and give demos/workshops of our products. This worked mostly well given that I could remote into my work computer through a Tailscale subnet router.

I ultimately ended up selling it in lieu of a MacBook Pro and an iPad mini, as I really missed having a local dev environment.

However, laptops at my current employer are more locked down, so I can't SSH and VNC into them like I could before, even through Tailscale.

Given that I will still travel a lot with them and like to work on non-work things during flights without carrying two laptops, I decided to get the OLED 11" iPad Pro with the Keyboard that I can use to remote into my laptop at home.

I also draw heavily during deep dives and workshops; so much so, that I always have a Pencil with me in my fanny pack, which I carry with me everywhere. Given this, I also got me a Pencil Pro to replace it.

Me. Use it to read pdfs, draw, watch youtube and netflix, or as my laptop when I’m traveling. Best purchase I made.

> With these advanced features, Apple Pencil Pro allows users to bring their ideas to life in entirely new ways, and developers can also create their own custom interactions.

Can someone please make it so that if you turn the "Pencil" upside down it acts as an eraser, like a real pencil would?

I think it would depend on there being bits for the iPad to track where the tip is for it to work well. Kinda funny that Apple calls their stylus a Pencil and lack this functionality while the Surface and Wacom "Pens" do.

I understand the desire to mimic an existing tool, but I would find this feature (more specifically if it were limited to that) to be really annoying.

To me this is an example of skeuomorphism that forces an older experience into the digital one.

But you wouldn't be required to use it, just erase how you do now. I would love for this and for it to be customizable. It could be used to become a highlighter/selector tool or some other concept that we don't know yet. Adding in more features to a pencil and ones that mimic and improve on old analog equivalents sounds exactly like that kind of improvements I would like to see.

The pencil for the Remarkable tablet has this feature. I found that it was a great way to ease into digital note taking. Matching a real-world feature felt very natural.

Surface Pro did this ages ago, and while I like the iPad better in most ways for a tablet I would rather have the Surface’s eraser

Yeah. It's actually one of the main reason I've switched to doing my lectures off a Surface Pro rather than my iPad Pro. Having to constantly change tools in the apps just to erase is a giant pain (Yes, I know about double tap, but it doesn't work half the time).

It works great on Wacom pens. Erasing is a pretty fundamental part of drawing and painting workflows.

Yes, it’s a bit of skeumorphism, but pencil end eraser is a great design!

It makes intuitive sense regardless of existing tool - write on one end, reverse to erase.

now that's a variant of 'you're holding it wrong' I haven't seen yet.

Why?

This is muscle memory that's built into every person who's taught to write. You should reuse that muscle memory if you can to make writing flow easier.

Sure if you were teaching people to write exclusively on these devices then coming up with something new would make sense but since we all go back and forth using the real world method makes the most sense.

This has been around for so long I wonder if there's a patent that is in the way of apple implementing it.

Even though I tend to like Apple gear: if there is such a patent in the way I'm sure they'll add this once the patent expires, and call it a revolutionary development.

if it’s parent-encumbered, it’s literally been recognized as a novel and advanced innovation, that’s why it’s granted a patent in the first place. Choosing to license vs wait is a business decision but you’re spinning something that’s objectively true into somehow being a “trick”, which is a really common pattern when discussing apple for some reason (“selling or renting first-party tools is a trick”, for example).

> if it’s pa[t]ent-encumbered, it’s literally been recognized as a novel and advanced innovation

I think it's pretty clear by now that the patent system rarely works that way in practice, though that is the intent.

And I was merely joking that whatever apple announces has to be "revolutionary" or "groundbreaking" or "jaw-dropping". Whatever the quality of the product (and for their hardware, it's typically high), the company culture is to staple a bunch of superlatives onto the headlines.

(BTW I don't know what “selling or renting first-party tools is a trick" means)

There's a double tap gesture on the second gen (and newer I think) version of the Apple Pencil that switches between the eraser and whatever tool you're using. I find this to be much more efficient and ergonomic than having to turn the whole pencil over to erase.

Disagree with this

All these new chips and tbh it doesn't really matter if I still can't code on it yet.

These devices have been absolute workflow game changers for the artists in my life, but for coders, it's like a toy and nothing more. They're handcuffed from doing any creative work with it.

It's incredible how powerful these devices are, but so much potential only usable for watching youtube.

Running code from outside of the appstore is coming within the next six months in the EU. That should alleviate the problem somewhat. I look forward to apple getting more compliant with how the DMA is actually supposed to function.

> That should alleviate the problem somewhat.

This comment comes across as being from someone who has never paid attention to Apple’s business tactics. No offence.

Maybe I’m on the opposite end and too cynical, but I don’t think we know a) whether Apple will practice malicious compliance in a way that makes the ruling meaningless or b) whether they will comply at all.

And if they do comply in any way, we don’t know how long they will keep it that way before clawing back little by little or simply ending that compliance.

Also missing a fully functional ad blocker.

Rumor is safari will have a good one built in and some kind of ai to select and remove ads on pages you want.

AdGuard works pretty well?

Only in DNS level, which might be enough sometimes but things like uBlock origin are much more sophisticated for good reasons.

Onion browser from Kagi is one to keep eye out on.

Is this tandem OLED display a first? I'm familiar with stacked LCD displays, they've been around for a while though mainly in reference monitors due to their inefficiency, but this is the first I've heard of anyone stacking two OLEDs on top of each other.

First I have heard of it in a consumer device. I suspect this is why the M4 is launching with this device. They are probably using the added efficiency to power the Tandem OLED without sacrificing performance / battery life compared to the previous gen.

I will be interested to see what this looks like in person and if it makes it to consumer televisions. I personally find OLED bright enough for indoor use, but a lot of people complain about the reduced brightness on OLED TVs and monitors.

The most common situation where screen brightness is an issue for me is in rooms with big windows and a lot of natural light. On sunny days I find ~400nits to be about the minimum required to cut through glare on matte displays… for mirror-like glossy displays it’s even higher.

Aside from higher peak brightness I would assume it's also less prone to burn-in, the rate that OLED pixels degrade is proportional to how bright they run, and distributing the brightness over two stacked layers means each layer only needs to run roughly half as bright. Not exactly half since the top layer won't be perfectly transparent, but close enough.

I was curious about that also, trying to look past the marketing speak on whether or not this is actually as big of a thing as they are saying it is?

Particularly compared to OLED on TV's.

I think it's an attempt to alleviate burn in and flicker (at least during the warranty period;))

I don't understand the fluff about thin devices. I bought an iPad air a few years back and every time I picked it up the screen warped and I could see my fingers pressing through the back. I got a case for it thinking that'd help but I could still see it happen if I pressed hard enough. Returned immediately for the iPad Pro. I can't help but expect this would have similar problems AND it's Pro priced.

Also they wobble when places on a table, why cant they make it thicker, give more battery.

Like this is crazy that the pencil is thicker.

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/2024/05/apple-unveils-...

Also they wobble when places on a table,

It's a feature, not a bug. Just like the iPhones, it doesn't sit flat on a table so that people can't grind dirt into it and scratch up the back and complain on the internet about how it scratches all the time.

first i heard that excuses. maybe dont have a glass back, maybe add more battery life, maybe not let phones (and now ipads bend in pockets or bags?

> the fluff about thin device

So that iPad Pro + Magic Keyboard is close to Macbook.

But again: why focus on thinness in a pro device?

It helps with convergence of iOS and macOS, supporting both Macbook keyboard (laptop) and detached slate (mobile) form factors.

There are professionals who operate in space-constrained physical environments, e.g. superthin iPad + rugged case with other electronics can still be close to laptop form factor.

On a related note, there are 90/180 degree USB-C M/M and M/F 40Gbps adapters.

I’m sure that there are professionals who operate in spaces where they need to use it above their head, or while skydiving.

I’m not sure why small numbers of professionals would or should affect the whole product.

> I’m not sure why small numbers of professionals would or should affect the whole product.

Numbers are one metric. Money and other forms of influence are another.

I generally prefer thin devices to a certain point, and then after that I agree that it’s just fluff. I think showing how a product is “thinner” is an easy way to show that it weighs less, which is what I care about in thin devices.

Would you trade 600g and a slightly thicker device for double the battery life?

For me, on the iPhone and iPad Pro that I use: I'd personally prefer 600g less, since the battery already lasts absurdly long for my uses and I'm rarely without a charger. But double the battery life for just 600g is a crazy good tradeoff, so I wouldn't begrudge anyone for making that deal. If Tim Cook came out and said the next iPhone/iPad was going to be 600g heavier but with double the battery life, I wouldn't be upset at all.

I don't know; I had an ipad air 2 (until now the thinnest ipad ever) and now use a 2020 ipad air and never had those issues -- I even carry my coffee using the ipad as a tray.

The ipad 2 would lie flat on the table. I don't understand the fetish for a camera bump. It makes the phones suck too. You need a case of some sort to make them lie flat. They could just make the batteries bigger and keep the whole thing flat.

Totally agree - I don't find "stunningly thin and light design" to be a selling point any more. I want to hold a durable device without feeling like it might break or slip out of my hands, without needing a chunky case.

The iPad Pro plus keyboard folio was thicker and heavier than a MacBook Air. So honestly, this change is welcome. If they can get the keyboard+ipad combo into the same range as the MBA…I’d take the iPad instead. Today I’m at a conference and took my MBA because it’s the lightest option for all day carry.

So they've officially killed off the last iPad with a home button.

Elderly folks let out a collective groan since swapping a simple UI for an additional .5" of screen space seems like a poor tradeoff.

That button is an increasingly expensive component at scale, as it's a separate component to manufacture and build a supply chain for, as well as an additional component to add which can potentially fail.

This is why most carmakers are moving towards touchscreens now as well.

If you want to keep prices roughly comparable to previous SKUs in the midst of trade and supply chain kerfuffles, there has to be cost cutting somewhere.

Carmakers are moving to touchscreens because they don't have to custom design hard keys for each model and can just reuse the same design in every one, just tweaking the software. It's pure cheapness, not an improvement in any way.

Apple has been building the same home button for a decade. It's a simple, familiar interface. iPads cost hundreds of dollars. Engineering the cost of a button out of it at this point is pure greed.

> is shaving pennies off the cost by removing physical buttons

These are not pennies at scale. These are 9-10 figure costs at scale.

Just using the iPhone 15 Max as an example [0], your BoM is around $550-650 (including labor), but sells for $1,200.

50% margins are not great, especially because the the BoM grew from $400-500 for the iPhone 14 Max (Edit: "The parts costs for the Max series ranged between $400 and $450 during the 2018 to 2021 period", not iPhone 14), which also sold for $1,200.

A 50% decrease in margins on the flagship phone is a massive decrease in margins, and it's most likely similar across all Apple SKUs.

Every single component if you're in the hardware space costs money and overhead to manage, and supply chain issues can push back releases.

This is why companies are moving towards digital displays. It's the same principle why EVs can be more reliable than ICE vehicles due to less parts

As an (I presume) Engineer drill the following mantra into your head: MARGINS, MARGINS, MARGINS.

This is what gives you your paycheck in the environment we are in today.

[0] - https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/iPhone-15-teardo...

if Apple of all companies -- after decades of moral high standing about polished user experience and charging a premium for their brand -- is shaving pennies off the cost by removing physical buttons ... that's a shame!

if 3nm chip manufacturing receives so much interest -- why not a fraction of that investment in engineering more durable, lasting, and cheap physical components too.

years later Apple might be the company doing "radical innovation", being "uncompromising when it comes to UX" and add a physical button and charge a premium for it