Comment by rkagerer | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rkagerer | Hacker News Reader

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Great looking game, but the special EULA you have on Steam has some disagreeable clauses.

We can't:

- Allow any third party to use the Software on behalf of or for the benefit of any third party

So I can't let a friend play?

- Use the Software for any purpose that Wilhelmsen Studios considers is a breach of this EULA agreement

Ambiguous phrasing that subjects me to the whims of your interpretation.

And:

- The user agrees to indemnify and hold Wilhelmsen Studios harmless from and against all the risks arising out of the use of the Software.

Um, HELL NO. I'm not indemnifying you just to play a game. Especially with the "you can modify it at any time any way you want" clause below.

What if you (even accidentally) program the game to format my computer, participate in a botnet, download illegal content etc?

Or if the game causes YOU damages in some way - I'm not paying you for damages caused by your own code, or presuming by default to cover the costs of your lawyers if we go to court.

- Wilhelmsen Studios will offer the user no warranty on any issue arising out of the use of the “STEAM” service, and give no support thereto.

So if Steam pulls the game two days after my purchase, it's my problem not yours?

- The terms also apply to any Wilhelmsen Studios updates, supplements, Internet-based services, and support services for the Software

Does "for the Software" apply to all those items, or just the last one? (In this contrived example, if I hire you to do some consulting for me commercially - maybe "Internet-based services", am I deemed, in the absence of any other agreement, to accept these terms for that seperate relationship?)

- The provisions that by their nature continue and survive will survive any termination of this EULA agreement.

Again, very vague, and if a lawyer did this I'd tell them it's lazy drafting. I'm not sure if eulatemplate.com did you any favors here.

I was really excited to try your game but this EULA makes it a hard pass. This is far from the usual "Indie" approach typically seen here. Maybe you could explain why you need such unusual clauses, and why you can't achieve your required protections in a less user-hostile fashion.

This is just a generic EULA template, there are only minor additions.

> So if Steam pulls the game two days after my purchase, it's my problem not yours?

I don't think there's any instances of games getting pulled from steam. If you have it in your library it'll stay accessible to you. Even if the developers removes the store listing.

> So I can't let a friend play?

It's also against the agreements of Steam to share your account with others.

I am not sure why you're so upset over a generic software EULA on a game on Steam. It might not be necessary or effective but it's not that harmful either.

> I don't think there's any instances of games getting pulled from steam.

Dead Island, Firefall, a slew of indie games. Usually Steam lets you keep downloading them even after the fact if they're in your library but the indie devs will often upload a garbage EXE prior to them abandoning the project so you can't do that. Those are cases where the publisher has opted to do that, however.

Steam has also pulled games - even their own. It's rare but it happens. CS:GO is a good example.

Like I said, if you own the game in your library you will always be able to download it. And I don't think there have been any instances where Steam has allowed a developer to purposely corrupt their game.

So if you've bought Firefall[1] or Dead Island[2] I am sure you can still play them. The store listings might've been removed but they'll never leave your library and they'll never leave the servers.

Even if the developers did intentionally worsen a game with an update, you could still search steamdb for the older version and attempt to manually download it.[3]

As for Steam pulling their own games, they're notorious for not doing so. For most of Valve's games you can download older versions as a beta. With CS2 you can play the original CS:GO on the csgo_legacy[4] branch. Just right-click the game and go to "Betas".

[1]: https://steamdb.info/app/227700/depots/

[2]: https://steamdb.info/app/91310/

[3]: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=88962...

[4]: https://steamdb.info/app/730/depots/?branch=csgo_legacy

> And I don't think there have been any instances where Steam has allowed a developer to purposely corrupt their game.

I literally own two where this has happened.

> So if you've bought Firefall[1] or Dead Island[2] I am sure you can still play them.

Dead Island maybe, Firefall definitely not as it's an online only game. However I'm not sure your point, I already stated that you can download them anyway.

> With CS2 you can play the original CS:GO on the csgo_legacy branch

This is not the same as keeping the game you originally purchased. And it was also not really my point.

Steam has removed games from their platform. I'm not sure why you're arguing this easily searchable fact.

“So if Steam pulls the game two days after my purchase, it's my problem not yours? I don't think there's any instances of games getting pulled from steam. If you have it in your library it'll stay accessible to you. Even if the developers removes the store listing.”

I can confirm this. Ubisoft likes to pull their titles off Steam and now some of them like older Rocksmith titles are no longer being sold on Steam yet I am still able to install and play my previously purchased titles still on Steam.

“So I can't let a friend play? It's also against the agreements of Steam to share your account with others.”

There is Steam Family where you can share games with up to five people that you consider “family”. Everyone in a “Steam Family” can share their games with each other. Most games on Steam are eligible. It’s been around for a decade or more.

Using the Steam Family feature for this game would likely put you in violation of the EULA.

The developer would have to enable Steam Family.

> > So I can't let a friend play?

> It's also against the agreements of Steam to share your account with others.

I don't think that's what it's about; in any case that was not my interpretation. I think it's about Bob buys the game, Lana comes over, Lana plays Bob's copy of the game on Bob's computer.

Thanks, the Bob/Lana example is exactly what it's about.

Responding to the earlier comment, I can't believe people aren't more upset when publishers try to force terms on them containing language that's unreasonable.

These are quite concerning and at best no thought was put into them and this is just some cookie cutter template.

That being said (and i am not a lawyer), if you are a Customer in the European Union it is very likely that terms like

> The user agrees to indemnify and hold Wilhelmsen Studios harmless from and against all the risks arising out of the use of the Software

won't fly anymore in the near future since the Cyber Resiliance Act was created precisely to prevent companies from ditching liability for damages.

That is rather alarming and I'm also curious to hear a possible explanation on this

I'm impressed you even bothered to read those terms. Whenever I come across some "terms" document, I just assume it says the following:

> you own nothing

> the company owns everything

> you have no rights

> you promise not to try and exercise any right you think you have

> just in case you ever get it in your silly little head that you do have any rights whatsoever, you agree to binding arbitration with the firm we pay

> you cannot do anything the company doesn't like

> the company can do literally anything it wants whether you like it or not

> the company is not responsible for anything ever

> the company makes absolutely no guarantees about anything

> but you agree to indemnify us in all possible circumstances

Strange, I can't see an EULA on the store page, did it get removed?

On the right side of the page, below the game capabilities (Singleplayer, Achievements, etc) is a link to the EULA

https://store.steampowered.com//eula/882140_eula_0

Thanks, I was looking at the wrong store page. Don't mind me.

Edit: I think this explains a fair few things:

> This EULA was created by eulatemplate.com for Reentry - An Orbital Simulator, with modifications and additions by Wilhelmsen Studios.

To the game dev, if you're reading this: you may want to read the Steam Subscriber Agreement. It may already cover what you want and you may not need an EULA, especially since this may be unenforcable in many parts of the world.

> - The user agrees to indemnify and hold Wilhelmsen Studios harmless from and against all the risks arising out of the use of the Software. > > Um, HELL NO. I'm not indemnifying you just to play a game. Especially with the "you can modify it at any time any way you want" clause below.

Aren't we indemnifying most open source software authors in the same way? For example the MIT license says "IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY [...]"

> - Wilhelmsen Studios will offer the user no warranty on any issue arising out of the use of the “STEAM” service, and give no support thereto. > > So if Steam pulls the game two days after my purchase, it's my problem not yours?

I think that very rarely happens. But since you brought it from Steam and not from the game studio, then it's mainly Steam's problem to either deliver the game or reimburse you.

> Aren't we indemnifying most open source software authors in the same way?

No.

> For example the MIT license says "IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY

That’s a disclaimer, not an indemnity clause. They aren't the same thing.

A disclaimer (to the extent legally permitted) means that the party accepting it waives certain claims against the party disclaiming liability, and indemnity clause means the partt accepting it agrees to pay liabilities that the party demanding the indemnity might be found to have to third parties within the scope of the clause.

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