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Comment by raverbashing | Hacker News Reader

Oh, I wish it was that simple.

You can't mix and match (you can theoretically)

Let's say you began with Django, right? Or there was something already ready in Django.

And then you begin to see the warts. But ok, you keep churning along.

And the more you churn the more of a specialist in the deficiencies of each technology you become. Like the fact that Django's ORM runs like a dog.

Or see all the "we moved to MongoDB and we regret it" discussions

From that list, there are two technologies I would recommend strongly (if you know what you are doing): nginx and Redis

The rest needs to be handled with care. And Redis is very powerful if you know how to use, but it's easy to go the "lazy way" with it, and it will be fast, but not as fast as it can.

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Yes, but the Django ORM helped them launch faster. There is nothing wrong using it to start with and then writing your own SQL queries when you need to scale or even changing your data model to accommodate scaling.

I agree 100% (even though I don't know what or if they changed the Django ORM - most likely yes)

Use the tools to launch faster, then optimize.

My company is going through exactly this scenario right now. We launched on and use Rails for most stuff, but there are a couple of important cases where we have to do direct sql.

Though I've had to work around some of Rails defaults for my use cases, there is no doubt that without it we'd not have been able to launch and iterate so quickly.

I hate the Django ORM and I don't know why Django doesn't just deprecate it and switch to SQLAlchemy as the new default, which is a much, much better ORM and used primarily by non-Django Python apps.

Why don't YOU try?

Why don't I try what? Deprecating the Django ORM? I've already done so on a personal level (in fact, I avoid Django wherever possible), but since I don't control the Django project, I can't deprecate it for everyone, as I suggested in the parent comment. :)

Excuse me but couldn't they just optimize the way they use Django ORM?

... as in: check the output of SQL queries constructed by Django ORM and tweaked it in your Django Model layer such that the resulted SQL query will be tuned for performance?

Or at the very least, shouldn't Django ORM at least provide a way to retrieve data with "filtering" as optional parameters? (get only a few columns, but not all..)

Let me tell you something

If you're reading "just tables" without, or with simple relations and conditions, it's ok (because, as you pointed out, that's basically SELECT with)

The problem is when for example you have inheritance, or moderately complex relations.

Then you'll see Django spamming your DB with requests and the DB may be fast but the operation will be slow because of the sheer number of requests.

So yeah, in a sense you can optimize for it, or use SqlAlchemy (which is good, but it has a different philosophy than the Django ORM in the way it's used)

Inheritance is a different beast that ... well, let's just say that it may creates and endless debate whether one should or should not have inheritance in the model...

My experience is heavily in Java (JPA2 and Hibernate) and less of Rails (simple/moderate apps). Typically an ORM provides a way to handle custom queries but still help maps the result to the Java object model (which helps a lot vs writing getter/setter :)).

I don't know how people down south in Silicon Valley design their model (especially young scrappy startup) but I have a slightest doubt that they go that far (advanced/complex). It's not like startup start with "analyzing requirements" and move on to "modelling session" :) => they just go ahead and write code.

So in theory, the data model shouldn't be complex enough to warrant edge-case.

I didn't say that it is simple to come up with such setup. But whenever I see such list, it reminds me of some sort of blueprint architecture (or template) that I've seen somewhere else.

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