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Comment by pjmlp | Hacker News Reader

This Microsoft hating article misses that now, Microsoft couldn't care less.

They have their own Linux distribution, all these years after the lawsuit they have become a Java distribution provider, recently added their own Go build for Azure, speaking of which, even if powered by Hyper V/Windows Host OS, 60% of Azure workloads are Linux based, more so if count ChatGPT/CoPilot stuff.

Then there is Github holding a big deal of FOSS universe as well.

VSCode and its forks used by cloud providers as Web IDEs, completly outshadow vim/emacs clones, to the point JetBrains felt pressured to come out with Fleet.

Their sales champions in 2023 were XBox, Azure and Microsoft 365.

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I know it's a meme at this point but you just explained Embrace in 5 lines.

It is not embrace when you can fork it. :)

One of the things that comes to mind here is the fact that the default Python extension for VS Code is, perhaps surprisingly to many, not open source. https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release

While it's possible to fork VS Code, it is not possible to fork VS Code and provide a seamless onramp towards a Python editing experience that is fully open source, because users are used to the nuances of the closed-source Pylance experience in VS Code proper. You could use the minified/compiled Pylance plugin in your fork, but you'd have no way to expand its capabilities to new hooks your fork provides. Microsoft's development process would always be able to move faster than a fork, because it could coordinate VS Code internal API development with its internal Pylance team, and could become incompatible with forks at any time.

It's worth re-reading the quote from J Allard in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... with this modern example in mind.

(Also worth mentioning https://github.com/detachhead/basedpyright?tab=readme-ov-fil... which is a heroic effort to derisk this, but it's an uphill battle for sure!)

There are other Python plugins, freedom of choice, isn't what FOSS is all about?

After all that is what everyone claims about Chrome forks.

The steps are Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

Embrace is the one you can fork.

Extend is the closed-source bits that connect to the open source stuff.

(For example, all the closed-source extensions to VSCode.)

So basically like open-core OSS where you hook in people in on the open source part and then start adding bit by bit proprietary extensions until the OSS offering is noticeably subpar to the closed one.

Is this any/substantially different than the open-core licensing models that seem to be fairly well received by many?

What would be Extinguish?

Remove, restrict, irrevocably alter, or up the price to your service which users have come to depend on now that free alternatives cannot compete.

For example: Pylance becomes a premium plugin, or VsCode is no longer downloadable and can only be run in the browser if you have a GitHub account, or VsCode only runs on Windows 11 machines, or VsCode requires an Office 365 account, or they fork VsCode and start adding heavy "telemetry" while simultaneously rapidly altering pylance and plugin APIs so free plugins and original VsCode can't keep up.

Time to contribute another plugin for VSCodium.

There's a vast difference between a technical fork and a meaningful fork.

If it goes for Chrome with Google, also goes for Microsoft.

Which is meaningless. Embracing open source software is a _good_ thing.

Extending open source software / standards with proprietary additions is the only aspect which is deserving of criticism.

I feel like that's already happening with the integration of the issues tracker and the CI/CD actions into github. A lot of newer developers just see github as git instead of realizing there is git outside of it that can be run locally without needed a cloud service backing it. They might not even see a reason why they would want to have control over their own code hosting until microsoft starts squeezing them hard.

That's all fun and games until you find out the final stage is extinguish.

Extinguish isn't a thing you do, it's the intended consequence of step 2.

The German federal government alone will pay 1.28 billion Euros to Microsoft until 2025 [1] so I’m pretty sure they do care about their government contracts.

[1] https://amp.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/deutschland/it-open-s...

Which doesn't mean it has to be Windows, it might as well be Azure and 365.

There are Microsoft stuff that now are Linux only, like SQL Server containers, the Windows variant of them is no longer supported.

By the way several NRW libraries use custom Linux distributions.

Did you read the article? Schleswig Holstein wants to move to Libre Office, potentially ditching 365.

> Their sales champions in 2023 were XBox, Azure and Microsoft 365.

And that last one is why they care and what this article is all about.

Not sure what point you're making here. They have lots of products, some of which are open source, but Office /365 is still a huge cash generator.

They most certainly do care about Office / 365's grip being weakened.

Microsoft 365 cloud.

> 60% of Azure workloads are Linux based

Do you have a citation for this? I honestly thought it would favor Linux even more; I'm surprised it's this "low" for Linux.

If this is true, it makes me wonder how many of the small-medium back office deployments are now just cloud-only. While there's a lot of money in fortune 500 windows deployments, there's possibly even more money waiting for the conversion of small-medium sized businesses in their conversion to the cloud. But the SMB market would probably leans towards Windows-based services (I'm guessing).

https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/products/virtual-machines/....

> Xbox

Rumors are they are leaving the hardware business since that hurts their margins and they can have OEMs build things like the Steam Deck and get away with selling Game Pass without the hardware risk. While profitable, dropping hardware could significantly boost margins (at the expense of the console crowd).

Yes, they migth be turning into SEGA, still hardly matters given the money on the XBox ecosystem, meaning the combined sales of all game studios owned by Microsoft, across all platforms.

The challenge is not windows vs linux. It is avoiding the Office365 tax.

Cloud.

> Their sales champions in 2023 were XBox, Azure and Microsoft 365.

Indeed, but they're going to ditch Microsoft 365 as well.

as the sole beneficiary of the windows tax they sure care as much as everybody who is trying to avoid it

Windows 10 and 11 are trivially pirate-able by entering a few commands, pointing to a phony KMS server. This is actually a huge change from the Vista/7 era where you had to download and install sketchy activation cracks.

I'm sure Microsoft still wants to collect Windows license fees from enterprises and hardware manufacturers, but they're far more relaxed about Windows licensing than they used to be.

Windows sales aren't as relevant as everything else they can get from games and Azure, see the 2023 financials, that place them head to head with Apple in earnings.

What's your point actually?

I think the point that @pjmlp was making was that "Microsoft couldn't care less." But, while that may or may not be true, I see it more like microsft using open source software against possible open source customers...or rather against customers who have the potential to leverage open source. And, if that's true, then i would gather that microsoft does indeed care...its merely using a different set of tactics and tools (open source software), as compared to its tactics and tools from decades ago.

They don't care as long as the money drops into the bank one form or the other.

Just like Google, Amazon, Facebook, IBM, Oracle, Intel, AMD, NVidia and everyone else whose paychecks support FOSS projects cheered in HN and other forums.

I don't see those companies doing the same embrace, extend, extinguish moves, though? Maybe Amazon a bit.

Then you're not looking right.

Much as I love a good ad hominem, do you have any examples?

You really can't think of any example of anti-OSS behaviours from that list of companies, in spite of them sponsoring key FOSS projects?!?

It appears that neither of us can.

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