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Comment by proberts | Hacker News Reader

That still would cross the line even if that wasn't your plan when you entered.

We all know startups are crossing that line all the time with their "off-sites," hanging out in Airbnbs and coding together for a week or so at a time around conferences.

One of our engineers got a 10 year ban from the country for misspeaking about this exact situation.

"Coming in for an offsite? Think you'll be doing any work there?"

"I dunno, I guess it's possible?"

That's all it took. Obviously any further trips involved extensive coaching on what not to say to cops at the border.

Heh, I was going to ask, what's the consequence if you do say the wrong thing? They correct you and tell you what you're not allowed to do?

... I guess that answers that!

Wow. Wouldnt have expect it to be that strict.

I was working for a US company from the EU and once had a slip of tongue. The officer grilled me for a bit, but also made me realize my mistake. I didn't have any issues in my next visits. I think a lot might depend on the tone and social skills. Maybe the dev in question was a bit rude? Or maybe they stumbled on someone that was almost religious about these things.

The dev in question has a heart of gold, imo the border agent was just an asshole. He asked him a leading question, lord knows why. Obviously our lawyers at the time hold some responsibility for not warning us to be wary of that kind of thing but still.

Do you mind if I ask though, do you feel it's acceptable that one's level of kindness is all it takes to change whether a State bans someone from the country for 10 years, or, allows them in after grilling them a bit?

Interesting. I know for certain from experience that some ESTA visitors and their employers assume the law does NOT work like this, and that as long as you're visiting for a legit "business" purpose you are not required to suspend your ordinary work activities while in the US. Good to have confirmation that this is wrong and that you DO have to suspend your ordinary work duties for the duration of the visit.

> you DO have to suspend your ordinary work duties for the duration of the visit.

Good luck convincing the average corporate boss of this plan

Could you expand on this? Where is the line? What's work and what's business?

It's literally anything that doesn't fit the narrow description in the business visa. A random example is if you own a house in the US, and you do any maintenance work on your own house, that is work.

From the US web site

participating in business activities of a commercial or professional nature in the United States, including, but not limited to:

    Consulting with business associates
    Traveling for a scientific, educational, professional or business convention, or a conference on specific dates
    Settling an estate
    Negotiating a contract
    Participating in short-term training
    Transiting through the United States: certain persons may transit the United States with a B-1 visa
    Deadheading: certain air crewmen may enter the United States as deadhead crew with a B-1 visa

Interesting. I used to work for a big international corporation and visited the US twice for work. A six week customer support gig and a one week field testing trip. The first trip was still under older visa waiver rules for Europeans, the second one under ESTA.

In none of those cases there weren't any kind of tricky questions asked at the border, I am sure I would have given the wrong answer. But I have been to more aggressive inquiries on conference trips, when giving the right answers was easy.

I have always assumed working means having a contract with an US employer (or of course self-employed).

One would assume a large corporation had processes in place not to expose their employees to such personal risks.

It really depends on how much such travel happens in said corporation. I've worked for companies that handled this well and others where they were generally clueless. Most large companies will have immigration lawyers that work with them but usually the trivial business trip doesn't go through a lawyer.

How much and what types of questions you're asked can depend on many factors. Whether the officer had a fight with his wife, your profile, how his day has been going etc. Sometimes it's "have a nice day" and sometimes it's a longer interrogation including secondary inspections.

This is a common misconception that work means having a contract with a US employer. As another example you're not allowed to work remotely for a non-US employer while physically being in the US.

That people get away with working while in B-1 or B-2 doesn't mean that the law allows it; simply put, some CBP officers know the law and others don't. The confusion is that years ago, the B-1 rules allowed for short term work in the U.S. while on the payroll of a foreign company but that absolutely isn't allowed anymore and if an applicant for a B-1 visa or admission in B-1 status says this, then there is a high probability that their visa application will be denied or they will be denied admission and possibly even banned. The grey area is the definition of "work" here. I use a couple of guidelines: clearly compensation from a U.S. source while in the U.S. is prohibited although reimbursement for reasonable travel expenses is allowed and activities the primary purpose of which is to benefit a U.S. entity or person almost certainly aren't allowed.

Wait, receiving compensation from a US source while in the US on an ESTA is prohibited? Wouldn't that mean that even the activities I described as legit "business" - a remote worker coming to the US on an ESTA to meet their US colleagues and attend a trade show with them - would be illegal? (Heck, if we take your wording pedantically literally, wouldn't it mean even taking a holiday to the US on an ESTA while remaining employed by a US company is illegal, even if you're not doing any kind of work whatsoever?)

Sorry, but this can't be right. Companies fly in people on B2 visas all the time to do onboarding, work on specific projects for a short period, and participate in offsites.

I've done this 10+ times in my career, for big and small companies, and it was never an issue even when explicitly saying these things with border patrol/immigration.

What gets you in trouble at the border is the risk of permanently staying, and the risk of drugs&money.

Can someone confirm/deny this?

What this person says is already contradicted by the immigration attorney who started this AMA.

I'm amused and perplexed at all of the "I'm not a lawyer, but..." comments when this is literally an AMA with a lawyer.

I commented as a "not lawyer" since it wasn't clear if the lawyer would answer and I have extensive experience, research, and have discussed this with lawyers. Just trying to be helpful.

I'm sure Peter Roberts is a fine professional, however, I have passed border patrol/immigration personally this way dozens of times and know of many other people who do it. You can find people doing this in an instant if you want.

I once got in trouble with BP because they didn't believe me that I was coming in to work on a project and thought I would be looking for a job to stay illegally. BP finally decided to let me in and told me that what I was doing was fine, but they just didn't find it credible that I would leave my GF alone for a month in Argentina.

You were lucky. I was questioned about this, and officer was considering for whopping 10 minutes. I insisted I am coming only for "meetings", and even then it took a superior to greenlight me. I am pretty sure I would have been denied entry if I said the truth

OK, I really hate to point this out but this America we are talking about - we literally use the Visas and GCs to allow in those we want and not those we don't and how we decide who we want isn't arbitrary - it's mostly racist.

I think people coming from Western countries that speak English and are a certain color will have a completely different experience than those coming from anywhere else.

That comment about the New Zealand program for graduates to come work in the US for a few years - I've worked with freelancers from India that own their companies that were denied entry to the US.

There is a reason all of our companions just setup local shops everywhere in the world.

For the record I hate that we do this. I'm under the belief that if you can get here you deserve to be here - I don't care if your tired, hungry or poor - I'd still take you, it's how it ought to be.

I think this is start ups where European "employees" are contracting for the US entity as there's no local EU entity. You then do your visit through ESTA.

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