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That still would cross the line even if that wasn't your plan when you entered.

We all know startups are crossing that line all the time with their "off-sites," hanging out in Airbnbs and coding together for a week or so at a time around conferences.

One of our engineers got a 10 year ban from the country for misspeaking about this exact situation.

"Coming in for an offsite? Think you'll be doing any work there?"

"I dunno, I guess it's possible?"

That's all it took. Obviously any further trips involved extensive coaching on what not to say to cops at the border.

Heh, I was going to ask, what's the consequence if you do say the wrong thing? They correct you and tell you what you're not allowed to do?

... I guess that answers that!

Wow. Wouldnt have expect it to be that strict.

I was working for a US company from the EU and once had a slip of tongue. The officer grilled me for a bit, but also made me realize my mistake. I didn't have any issues in my next visits. I think a lot might depend on the tone and social skills. Maybe the dev in question was a bit rude? Or maybe they stumbled on someone that was almost religious about these things.

The dev in question has a heart of gold, imo the border agent was just an asshole. He asked him a leading question, lord knows why. Obviously our lawyers at the time hold some responsibility for not warning us to be wary of that kind of thing but still.

Do you mind if I ask though, do you feel it's acceptable that one's level of kindness is all it takes to change whether a State bans someone from the country for 10 years, or, allows them in after grilling them a bit?

Interesting. I know for certain from experience that some ESTA visitors and their employers assume the law does NOT work like this, and that as long as you're visiting for a legit "business" purpose you are not required to suspend your ordinary work activities while in the US. Good to have confirmation that this is wrong and that you DO have to suspend your ordinary work duties for the duration of the visit.

> you DO have to suspend your ordinary work duties for the duration of the visit.

Good luck convincing the average corporate boss of this plan

Could you expand on this? Where is the line? What's work and what's business?

It's literally anything that doesn't fit the narrow description in the business visa. A random example is if you own a house in the US, and you do any maintenance work on your own house, that is work.

From the US web site

participating in business activities of a commercial or professional nature in the United States, including, but not limited to:

    Consulting with business associates
    Traveling for a scientific, educational, professional or business convention, or a conference on specific dates
    Settling an estate
    Negotiating a contract
    Participating in short-term training
    Transiting through the United States: certain persons may transit the United States with a B-1 visa
    Deadheading: certain air crewmen may enter the United States as deadhead crew with a B-1 visa

Interesting. I used to work for a big international corporation and visited the US twice for work. A six week customer support gig and a one week field testing trip. The first trip was still under older visa waiver rules for Europeans, the second one under ESTA.

In none of those cases there weren't any kind of tricky questions asked at the border, I am sure I would have given the wrong answer. But I have been to more aggressive inquiries on conference trips, when giving the right answers was easy.

I have always assumed working means having a contract with an US employer (or of course self-employed).

One would assume a large corporation had processes in place not to expose their employees to such personal risks.

It really depends on how much such travel happens in said corporation. I've worked for companies that handled this well and others where they were generally clueless. Most large companies will have immigration lawyers that work with them but usually the trivial business trip doesn't go through a lawyer.

How much and what types of questions you're asked can depend on many factors. Whether the officer had a fight with his wife, your profile, how his day has been going etc. Sometimes it's "have a nice day" and sometimes it's a longer interrogation including secondary inspections.

This is a common misconception that work means having a contract with a US employer. As another example you're not allowed to work remotely for a non-US employer while physically being in the US.

That people get away with working while in B-1 or B-2 doesn't mean that the law allows it; simply put, some CBP officers know the law and others don't. The confusion is that years ago, the B-1 rules allowed for short term work in the U.S. while on the payroll of a foreign company but that absolutely isn't allowed anymore and if an applicant for a B-1 visa or admission in B-1 status says this, then there is a high probability that their visa application will be denied or they will be denied admission and possibly even banned. The grey area is the definition of "work" here. I use a couple of guidelines: clearly compensation from a U.S. source while in the U.S. is prohibited although reimbursement for reasonable travel expenses is allowed and activities the primary purpose of which is to benefit a U.S. entity or person almost certainly aren't allowed.

Wait, receiving compensation from a US source while in the US on an ESTA is prohibited? Wouldn't that mean that even the activities I described as legit "business" - a remote worker coming to the US on an ESTA to meet their US colleagues and attend a trade show with them - would be illegal? (Heck, if we take your wording pedantically literally, wouldn't it mean even taking a holiday to the US on an ESTA while remaining employed by a US company is illegal, even if you're not doing any kind of work whatsoever?)

Sorry, but this can't be right. Companies fly in people on B2 visas all the time to do onboarding, work on specific projects for a short period, and participate in offsites.

I've done this 10+ times in my career, for big and small companies, and it was never an issue even when explicitly saying these things with border patrol/immigration.

What gets you in trouble at the border is the risk of permanently staying, and the risk of drugs&money.

OK, I really hate to point this out but this America we are talking about - we literally use the Visas and GCs to allow in those we want and not those we don't and how we decide who we want isn't arbitrary - it's mostly racist.

I think people coming from Western countries that speak English and are a certain color will have a completely different experience than those coming from anywhere else.

That comment about the New Zealand program for graduates to come work in the US for a few years - I've worked with freelancers from India that own their companies that were denied entry to the US.

There is a reason all of our companions just setup local shops everywhere in the world.

For the record I hate that we do this. I'm under the belief that if you can get here you deserve to be here - I don't care if your tired, hungry or poor - I'd still take you, it's how it ought to be.

You were lucky. I was questioned about this, and officer was considering for whopping 10 minutes. I insisted I am coming only for "meetings", and even then it took a superior to greenlight me. I am pretty sure I would have been denied entry if I said the truth

I think this is start ups where European "employees" are contracting for the US entity as there's no local EU entity. You then do your visit through ESTA.

Can someone confirm/deny this?

What this person says is already contradicted by the immigration attorney who started this AMA.

I'm amused and perplexed at all of the "I'm not a lawyer, but..." comments when this is literally an AMA with a lawyer.

I'm sure Peter Roberts is a fine professional, however, I have passed border patrol/immigration personally this way dozens of times and know of many other people who do it. You can find people doing this in an instant if you want.

I once got in trouble with BP because they didn't believe me that I was coming in to work on a project and thought I would be looking for a job to stay illegally. BP finally decided to let me in and told me that what I was doing was fine, but they just didn't find it credible that I would leave my GF alone for a month in Argentina.

I commented as a "not lawyer" since it wasn't clear if the lawyer would answer and I have extensive experience, research, and have discussed this with lawyers. Just trying to be helpful.

I am not a lawyer but I'm pretty certain you are supposed to refrain from any "work" activity. So yes, you have broken the law.

I can also tell you nobody abides by this interpretation and it's virtually impossible to enforce. But your entry will be denied if you tell the immigration officer that you're going to be doing "work" that is not permissible under the specifics of the visa you're entering with. There are some other situations that are covered by a normal business visa and are work-like.

In case anyone misses it—there's a reply from the actual lawyer who started this AMA below this one.

Disclaimer - I'm not a lawyer

"Have I broken the law?" is a tricky question. You have, by the strictest letter of the law, engaged in an activity that could be deemed grounds for deportation and/or future denials of the visa. But by the same interpretation ~100% of visitors in the country are breaking the law and violating the terms of their visas in some way. So unless you yourself go to an immigration officer and say "I intend to engage in an illegal activity please deny me entry" you will be fine.

Immigration officers will ask your purpose of stay, and if your answer is not clear and they start questioning in more detail and you blurt out you're gonna do something which is technically not allowed by your visa, then you have a problem. Comparing yourself with others who also do illegal things during their stay won't help you then.

Your purpose is to attend xyz conference. That's literally all you have to say. I can assure you "what are you going to be doing between the hours of 6pm to 8pm on Tuesday when you have a break, and will you be commiting any code at that time?" is not going to come up.

Sure. Mentioning anything more than that will lead to trouble. But many people are not aware of how thin the line is and mention they are also going to work remote for a few hours. Or meet with colleagues for a hacking session. That's already too much.

This is the most European question I would have ever imagined.

It's US law. Are there similar European laws?

The European attitude is: Am I breaking the law? How do I make sure I’m not?

The American attitude is: I’m not breaking the law until someone tells me to stop.

The European (ok, Swedish) attitude is: the authorities are there to enforce the law.

The American attitude is: the law is there to support the authorities.

Sweden until early 2000's maybe

I would say the American attitude is more like "don't ask, don't tell."

French people have the us attitude. Germans are geniuses at rule breaking without breaking the law xD

Yeah, however, the problem with breaking laws around immigration in a place you like is that you won't have to do much to become ineligible for the convenient visa options. As in, get caught by immigration working on a tourist visa, get no tourist visa approved for the next 10~20 years. If you get a visa at all, that is, though I understand merely violating conditions, not breaking normal laws or overstaying has no good reason to get you banned from entry itself.

You can be banned from the US for any reason, or no reason, just because they don’t like the look of your face, or the officer is having a bad day, etc.

Regardless of what the law says you don’t have any right to enter the US, regardless of what visa you hold (except perhaps a green card), so be friendly, look wealthy and important, and say the right things.

Haha Spain and Italy are like: rules are stupid and there to be broken

"Más vale pedir perdón que permiso"

As a European I expect at least some common sense behind a law.

Every time I visited the US I noted a complete absence of common sense.

You only get common sense when everyone agrees with what the goal of the law should be.

Laws in probably every other country are the same in this regard. If you enter the country and do any work under the wrong visa, it is an improper entry.

That's correct.

But only when entering the US I have been asked for example: Do intented to engage in illegal activity?

That's question seems to violate common sense: No one intending to do so would admit it.

Nobody expects you to say "yes, I want to defraud old people" but if evidence comes up that you intended to do illegal stuff they now have a simple case of you lying to the immigration officer.

Similarly to how you are supposed to pay taxes on income of illegal activities, if they find stacks of cash in your house it becomes easier to convict you.

They are weird laws but have their uses (good or bad)

A direct question like that is seen to be useful as part of a broader set of questions, due to the emotional effect on the interviewee, depending on the "interviewing technique" that the agency is using.

US immigration is a nightmare. Even as a German with a Green Card, it was always extremely stressful.

I worked for a large Silicon Valley company as a foreign national (Canadian) and I flew down at least once a quarter. When I said I was going for “unpaid business”, I was questioned enough that it led me to ask my employer to get me the proper visa so I could legally work because it felt like I could get denied entry on the whim of the immigration agent. It felt uncertain and was kind of stressful.

My advice is, don’t risk it. Get the visa to allow you to work for at least the time you are there. I ended up getting a full TN visa but I believe there are short-term work visas for this circumstance as well.

Same here, also got a TN because the questioning becomes very uncomfortable as both sides of the conversation usually are not stupid. Some friends in a similar situation were turned around at the border which can also lead to getting barred from ever entering the US again.

To be clear, an H-1B visa is petition based so unless the CBP officer has reason to believe that something is amiss, the officer is not authorized to ask to see a copy of the petition; that clearly crosses a line. The TN is not petition based so every time a TN worker seeks admission, the CBP officer is authorized to re-adjudicate the TN application.

It's technically true that a TN may be reviewed at every entry true but I have personally crossed the border dozens of times with TN status and I know of many others that may live in Canada but have a day job in the US. It's a much easier entry vs. tourist/business visas. An H1B may or may not be petition based depending on your citizenship (e.g. for Canadians it's not) and either way any specific trip is either for business or leisure and certainly the immigration officer has authority to deny entry. EDIT: Sorry I misread that as a B1 or B2. H1B is different. Also much harder to get vs. a TN (which is just easy process at the border).

I believe even with the visa it’s still up to the immigration agent. I came close to trouble once when asked for my H1B visa petition document (not the visa in the passport). I had a photocopy and was told that wasn’t enough and although they’d let me in this time they expected to see the original in future. I also travelled with a letter from my employer explaining where I worked, job title etc as extra documentation just in case to derisk further.

what you do is, crank up your vpn, choose an European end-point and connect back to the US to do your work... lol... lol. I tell you.. american law is ridiculous... IT has gone global and they still have that ridiculous provision in the books. They are perfectly fine for us to milk the american IT cow from afar.. but don't you dare come spend that cheese in the contiguous USA... I think once an IT professional clearly shows ability to work remotely, they should be allowed free access to spend that cheese back in the economy which employs them.

Maybe what could help is if you operate under an LLC. (myself inc.), that way when you visit, you visit as a company... but I am not a lawyer.

Nobody visits as a company, such thing simply doesn't exist. And if you work under ESTA or B1/B2, you're violating the law.

Not a lawyer, but it seems unlikely that anyone would scrutinize your visit closely enough to care.

No, US immigration are notorious for exactly the opposite. See my other comment in this thread.

That's scrutiny at the border. But in 17 years of regular business visits, I've yet to see La Migra barge into my cubicle to make sure I was not programming while there.

Plenty of people are unaware how delicate the line is though and talk too much and the wrong things at the border.

Haha, fair enough.