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Comment by SignalM | Hacker News Reader

Worked in one. They are safety nightmares. They give safety bonuses if “nothing is reported” so nothing gets reported. Working conditions suck.. you spend your time begging for AC in a metal can in 100 degree heat (outside) on top of that the craziest thing was how subcontractors made money. I was in test so we wondered why certain runs of cable were way out of spec. Turns out subcontractors are paid by the foot to install cable so it would take the longest route through. Nuts. Never work there.

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There's a BBC Nova episode about the soviet union with an apocryphal story about train schedulers being evaluated on the amount of cargo shipped by distance so of course, freight was sent on the least efficient route to its destination. Amazing to see the exact same metric get gamed again.

German trains are evaluated on their timelines. If a train is more then an hour delayed passengers get their money back. So every train that runs into a high delayed is marked as "Cancelled" and if followed by an "Ersatzzug" that is curiously similar to the canceled train, because if the train is cancelled, the passengers don't get their money back if a Ersatz is followed promptly

It doesn't work that way. Travellers are entitled to 25% restitution if they arrive at their destination station between 1 and 2 hours later than planned, 50% reduction if delayed by more than 2 hours. It does not matter how they arrive there, either using their originally scheduled services or some alternative ("ersatz"), it is the time of arrival that matters.

BYW, this is not just in Germany, the rule goes for many countries in the EU.

Source: been there, done that (too) many times.

I don't know if it was actually the most efficient strategy, but the thing I always liked to do in Transport Tycoon was find a coal mine etc in one corner of the map and a power station etc in the other one and build a line delivering between them - you got paid by the mile so when the train finally arrived the fee would be massive. Didn't realise that was actually an accurate (modulo apocryphal) element of the simulation :)

it's also what we do in Age of Empires 2 with our merchant carts.

None of that is accurate other than the fact it might be hot if the AC isn't running, and there are a lot of perfectly legitimate reasons why the AC might not be running.

We actively encourage reporting of all incidents, and cable runs are not determined by subcontractors trying to find the longest route. Cable runs are determined by drawings done by the Navy and they're installed in accordance with the drawings or people don't get paid. That's definitely one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.

I spent nine years on CVNs and many of those years in the yards installing, deinstalling, and maintaining equipment.

So, you worked with them on the same projects, and that's how you know they are lying about their own firsthand experience?

The paid by the foot thing is why I am doubtful of OP's story. There are drawings of where cables go in every aircraft and ship and building owned by DOD. Their accuracy with respect to reality, of course, is not always spectacular but these drawings existed before construction began. The subs routing cables arbitrarily through the ship is not likely to go unnoticed, and is better described as "sabotage" as it makes future maintenance and repairs nearly impossible.

"We're paid by the foot" is exactly the kind of snarky answer I'd expect someone to give if asked, "Why are you doing it that way?" when "that way" is the way the drawings lay out and the person asking isn't a supervisor or monitor of your work.

I would not be surprised if "paid by the foot" is correct. But paid by the foot of the cable installed to an external spec, with no ability to choose routing.

I helped install the combat systems on a CVN, so I can speak pretty authoritatively on how that process works. It's not different on different ships, that contracting process is very cookie cutter. Contractors don't get to choose how they want to run cables. Everything is carefully specified and if it's not followed nobody gets paid and they have to rip it out at their own expense.

so why does the government/navy incentivize such bloated inefficiency, slop, and misuse of resources/time/money/energy?

They don't. Op fabricated the story, as pretty much anyone in the Navy would confirm for you.

Source: several relatives in the navy working on ships, also have dealt with the contractors in question that run cable. Contractors absolutely do not get to determine the route cabling takes. There are endless reasons that would be insanity starting with basic security of the ship. Do you think random contractor X gets to loop cable through the reactor room because it'll make him a bit more money?

Yeah… I’ve heard a lot of stories about shipyard dysfunction from friends and relatives, but it’s nothing so exciting. It’s mostly poor planning that results in expensive waste and slowdowns.

It’s really difficult to impose efficiency on outside contractors without them cutting corners.

Congress doesn’t want the government to do anything in house.

Wouldn't requiring that "cable runs" "meet spec" impose efficiency?

(for the definition of efficiency that is worth caring about anyway)

Any single issue can be addressed, but this is a meta issue.

There’s overhead to a more detailed specification. Creating it takes time and people need to read and understand it, then you need someone to inspect the results to keep someone honest. It remove flexibility, and even tiny changes require large updates to the specification when then need to be reviewed etc.

So simply adding details to a specification inherently reduces efficiency.

my job has me managing multiple contractors/vendors at a time. you employ checks and balances, contractual obligations, smart project plans and requirements, and regular oversight.

how is this any different.

You see, these contractors tend to hire retired admirals and generals directly out of acquisitions positions and onto their boards. The contracts are written in ways that make it hard to punish shoddy work in a way that doesn't make the government side look bad too, so they tend to let slide what is kept out of sight. After all, if someone makes enough noise, then your contract may end up on the news or even worse, on the hill. If that happens, contracts get yanked, people get reassigned or lose their chance at a kushy spot on a board in a few years. It varies by contract and organizations, some are much better run than others and tend to deliver good quality.

It's so much money that all the best scammers can't resist, and so much bureaucracy/regulation that all the honest folks reach their limit and move on.

PPBE, though now that's changing with the new Defense Resourcing System [0]

[0] - https://ppbereform.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Com...

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