Comment by carschno | Hacker News Reader

Comment by carschno | Hacker News Reader

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While scanning the comments, I observe one recurring argument against the step of legalizing weed: (excessive) use can and will have catastrophic psychological consequences on some of the consumers.

I totally agree. It is, however a flawed argument in the context of legalization. One of the arguments for the legalization by the health ministry is that prohibition has been ineffective, factually not avoiding or even reducing (excess) weed consumption (among minors). Prohibition has criminalized many people for their consumption (via necessary circumstances such as possession), at the same time often denying help to those consumers who needed it.

The goals of drug policy should be: - help consumers to avoid or treat harmful consumption, especially minors - do not criminalize adult citizens who do no harm to others

Neither of these goals have been achieved by prohibition. Legalization is not going to help on the first point either, but might make it easier.

In the context of the second point: prohibition has been a nasty vehicle for arbitrary, often racist policing. Given that prohibition is not realistically possible in full consequence, the inherent tools of criminalizing alleged drug users are often applied to specific groups only, often for racist motives. Throwing around cocaine at the company party of your startup will hardly be punished, whereas the immigrant neighbor ends up in jail for smoking a joint.

There's a middle ground between legalization and prohibition - consumption is legal / decriminalized, while sale is illegal. Some European countries follow this model for weed and other drugs.

It's a middle ground similar to the handling of pornography (often legal) and prostitution (often illegal) and it doesn't make much sense. Usually production, trafficking, and sale are also considered illegal, because to only make illegal the latter would make it more much difficult to prosecute those involved in sales and distribution. Some users need more than others, and some users produce their own supplies. Neither should be illegal, but both often are.

Either it's okay for adults to consent to activities that don't harm others or its not. People should have the right to choose what to do with their bodies, and the legal system should have to ability to disincentivize antisocial behavior in ways that are productive i.e. that actually reduce it.

The antisocial behavior is not people selling/smoking a joint or having/selling consensual sex -- and while it might be associated with them, the government should be tackling those other, actual problems instead.

> People should have the right to choose what to do with their bodies, and the legal system should have to ability to disincentivize antisocial behavior in ways that are productive i.e. that actually reduce it.

And this middle ground does that. You still can smoke weed if you want to and obtain it. But the government does not have any responsibility to facilitate you getting it.

Making the production, trafficking and sale illegal disincentivizes consumption without actually prosecuting the consumer.

Based on your argument, the reason for legalization of weed is that the current police system has totally failed and decided the only way forward is to give up policing it? That would make this move seem more of a failure than a victory…

Prohibition works. It works very well. It's just that you can't have half-working prohibition, which is what a lot of Western countries want to subscribe to when it comes to drugs that really leave a stain on society.

Alcohol prohibition worked perfectly in the US, except that hard liquor usage skyrocketed for some reason, but I bet that had nothing to do with the prohibition itself.

How can alcohol prohibition work perfectly if alcohol prohibition isn't working?

Either you don't know what a perfect ban is or you don't know what perfect means.

I think the overlooked risk of cannabis consumption (smoke, vape or especially edible) is on heart health and arterial health.

please, back up this novel claim

My main issue since legalization is I find the smell disgusting.

It also imbues and latches itself onto to whatever is around you. Now legalization has people smoking it in my apartment complex or at restaurants and the smell just lingers around my house or on your clothes when your near it.

And then Every weed smoker I brought this up to told me tough luck.

Same problem with cigarette smoke though.

Is this supposed to be in defense of weed?

At least cigarette smell is agreed to be distasteful around others.

Smokers have gotten better at making sure they don’t smoke right in front of your face. The amount of assholes I’ve seen light up weed in front of you though and then tell you to piss of when politely asking them to smoke somewhere else trumps the cigarette smokers by far

Cigarettes only smell when being lit, marijuana smells always. And the smell is way more potent.

Both suck though, I agree.

Disagree that cigarettes only smell when being lit. The "stale tobacco" and "ashtray" smell sticks to your clothes, your vehicle, your house, basically anywhere where it's consumed. Anyone who smoked and later quit can attest to that, mostly because you go through this period of "Oh my, did I actually smell like that"?

Of course, smoked cannabis is the same. Whatever the smoke touches will leave some sort of residue and it can smell. In my opinion the "stale cannabis" smell is more pleasant than the "stale tobacco" smell, but different people are sensitive to different things.

    > Cigarettes only smell when being lit

I am confused. Second hand smoke smells awful, and cigarettes emit second hand smoke the entire time they are lit. Does this not count?

I think they mean that a bag of tobacco doesn’t make the room smell like an ashtray, but a bag of weed is excessively pungent even when wrapped and stashed.

Ah, great point. I misread OP. Thank you to clarify.

I am sorry they were rude to you. I had an experience in Phoenix Arizona recently. I was traveling for work from an illegal state, and we were having a work event, it was nighttime, and the smell started coming in from the street pretty strong, after a few minutes a hotel employee came over and closed the window and the smell went away. Seems like the more reasonable reaction instead of calling the police or trying to get the people arrested, on the other hand it was rude to light up on the sidewalk just outside of an open window/doors. If people were reasonable about their consumption and courteous of others in regard to the smell, there wouldn't be an issue. It's too bad we just can't make it illegal to be a rear end.

I support people being able to consume them but don't see much difference in the person who walks out in public reeking of cannabis than the person who is reeking of alcohol. When you walk around in public smelling of an intoxicant in places where it's not generally consumed in public don't be surprised when/if people look at you sideways.

> My main issue since legalization is I find the smell disgusting.

Tough luck.

I also dislike coffee breath, cigarette smoke, the smell of energy drinks, cinnamon chewing gum, perfumes, beer, dog shit, fertilizers, some garden flowers, car exhausts, ...

But on the bright side, there will be more variety in weed strains. They do smell differently. Some really are nasty, some are very pleasant. I absolutely love the smell of hashish, but I guess that's still gonna be rare.

Come on. Only really cigarette smoke and fertilizer is remotely comparable. And the latter is pretty rare unless you live in the country.

There's no such thing as a "pleasant" weed smoke. You only like it because you're smoking it.

Imo, it's very much dependent on the intensity. I don't smoke it myself and consider a slight whiff of it quite pleasant, but I wouldn't tolerate someone smoking in my living quarters.

How are these things not comparable? It's all smells which linger and affect people around, but have to be tolerated as personal freedom of the offender.

I guess, apart from indoor smoking without proper ventilation (illegal in Germany), car exhausts are the only other thing which should be illegal, because of the huge burden on public health and the objective impact on another's life. If I have to tolerate even car exhausts, you have to tolerate all the weed stink. I would gladly sacrifice weed for a car ban.

I don't smoke. But you need friends with better dope, or stop hot boxing.

Coffee breath? Cinnamon gum? MAYBE you'll notice those things a foot away from someone in a one to one conversation. I can tell someone is smoking a joint across the street. I can tell the person in the unit below me is smoking weed. I can't tell you if they had coffee, cinnamon gum or are wearing perfume. The strength isn't remotely comparable. Car exhaust, while not great doesn't have even close to the bad smell weed smoke has.

And I live in country with already legal and easily accessible weed with a wide variety of strains. I don't think I'm just smelling skunk weed.

> I can tell the person in the unit below me is smoking weed.

I can tell when my neighbour has potato or prawns for dinner. And anyone in this apartment building can smell the burnt garlic. I like garlic smell but not burnt garlic smell.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

It is "tough luck" as you frame it since collective good takes precedence :). I do disagree about the smell lingering, the marijuana smell doesn't stay around for a long, overnight or so, while tobacco smoke does imbibe itself to clothes and requires a wash and I don't see people saying one cannot smoke cigarettes, especially in Germany or any EU countries.

In any case nobody cares what you think, about MJ, sorry but not sorry. If this were true we wouldn't have highly deadly/poisonous substances such as alcohol around.

To be fair, while cigs are stinkier and last longer, marijuana is WAY more potent. E.g. a joint will make an entire neighborhood smell like wee d for hours whereas a cig makes like a 20 ft radius smell like cigs for 20 mins and the smoker and any nearby clothing smells like it until its washed.

That and capitalism, airplanes, industrial messes cause cancer and more, cars, alcohol, guns, war, famine, poverty, all maim kill, ruin lives and we keep all these things we invented through history.

But ooo man the moral panic over plants nature provides

It all just screams fake moral outrage to keep people buying man-made vices

I'd say it's also important to keep in mind that much of the initial fear mongering around cannabis in the US was centered around racism

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