Comment by mattraibert | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mattraibert | Hacker News Reader

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Could you please provide some evidence?

A glance at your comment history reveals a pattern: anecdotal examples of wildly low salaries ($40k-$50k), and unsubstantiated claims that every possible source of salary data (aside from your examples) is inaccurate.

Just a couple of examples:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3978058

>That's worse than the OP's link.

>If any company paid that much there'd be a line at the front door every single day of people wanting to be hired.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3953590

>You're "facts" are far from that.

>The developers we have onsite with the customer (Department of Defense with Top Secret clearances) are paid roughly $40-50K/yr USD.

>If there were companies that actually paid the salaries you're quoting there would be a line of people at the front door every morning wanting to get hired.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3959410

>Your reference is like citing Ms Cleo - pathetic actually.

>If companies actually paid those amounts listed there'd be a line of applicants at the front door every single morning wanted the job.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3344467

>If there were developer jobs paying that much, there'd be a line of people at the front door every day wanting to get hired.

>Quality people are easy to find, a quality company is not.

Yup - I hate the HR hype (you're HR right) that "OMG LOOK @ WUT WE PAYZ!!!!111".

I've spent the past 10+ years as a defense contractor working cleared programs. I've seen all sorts of sleazy work done by HR and management to push salaries down.

- Justify your position - done 2x yearly

- Switching you from one project to another that has less benefits associated with it (this means the company doesn't have to pay their portion, so it's a larger profit margin for them)

- Not reimbursing for directed travel

- Full Time Employee required to pay for hardware/software to do the job

- Assigned a primary health provider closest to work so as to minimize out of office time; or assigned one on the other side of the state; in this scenario it would have meant a 2+ hour drive one way

- Bait and switch with employee referrals (suddenly not qualified for the bonus because a recruiting subcontractor had contacted them 2 years ago - no documented contact, but let the employee prove otherwise)

But who do you think fills out those salary surveys - HR/management. Do you believe that they'd be honest. They have a vested interest in stacking something like Glassdoor - prospective clients use it. Clients want a workforce that's "happy". They'll pay more for it because the perception is better output and low turnover. So the company has ensured a good payday for themselves, low employee expenditure rate, and the work is still being done. Of course with one project I worked the turnover was a killer (140%+ at the 30 month mark, 6 program managers, 5 deputy program managers, least amount of time someone was here before they said f*ck it was 22 hrs) - but profit is profit.

So keep believing in your vision that companies, managers, and HR speak the truth.

Um, trying not to be rude, but that's a problem you have, not a problem software developers have. Inflating reported salaries and then keeping some of the money for yourself might be a problem with people who use contractors. For normal companies using salaried employees, reporting inflated numbers make no sense. (Though note that for recruiting companies inflating salaries does make sense - but this benefits the developers as well as the recruiters.)

Get yourself on a salary with a respectable tech-oriented company. I worked for an average digital agency where none of your points applied to me, I was paid more out of school than your contractors, and to top it off I actually liked our HR.

It's industry wide actually.

We are salaried employees of these companies: http://washingtontechnology.com/toplists/top-100-lists/2011....

Finding a quality company is a pain. Recruiters lie to get their 10% to 15%. Companies bait/switch - continued employment constitutes implied consent when dealing with benefits, and the list goes on.

Switch the industry. You can get $50k/year swinging Drupal code with no questions asked or qualifications required. I am honestly confused as to why you'd stay in this horrible environment.

All companies are like this. I've been with four companies: 3 with big, big names, the other was mid-sized (about 700 people). All listed here: http://washingtontechnology.com/toplists/top-100-lists/2011....

1 in the top 10, 1 in the top 20, 1 in the top 30, and 1 in the top 50.

They're all like that. If they can't (or won't) answer about cost control measures, then they're crap.

50K/yr for drupal. LOL. We've got developers working with VB/C# and TFS for $65K/yr. Another developer doing coldfusion for 60K. And all with top secret cleances and DoD 8570 certs. Just the industry standard.

I think everyone has seen the recruiter spam for companies that offer free drinks. How about a medical plan where I can chose which provided to see - not be assigned one 2 hours away. Keep the free candy bar, and give me a 401K instead.

> All companies are like this.

They're not... you're being willfully obtuse. I can tell you they're not because I've never worked for a company like that. I'm sure they exist, but to say they're all like that is simply untrue.

Then link to one to think works differently.

I assume you meant “one you think works differently.“

Facebook, Google, and Microsoft are all known for treating their employees well and paying top dollar for them. I've worked at a couple of other internet companies (and not those), and have always been treated and paid well.

And honestly here's the thing. A number of people have told you that they've had much better experiences at our jobs than you've had at yours. Not only that, but there are several sources of data available to you, some in this thread and others you can find by searching for things like “what is it like to work for $company” or “best companies to work for”. There have also been a number of surveys here on HN about salary (you can find them by searching for salary), and discussions of people's experiences working at companies.

And yet, I don't think there is any amount of data anyone can provide to convince you that software developers are normally paid very well and treated exceedingly well. I don't know if you're just bitter from working in a shitty job for so long, if you're some kind of conspiracy theorist, if you have some kind of personality disorder or what, but you simply refuse to believe what we're all telling you.

Either that or you're trolling, in which case, well done. I don't know why, but this discussion has really gotten into my head.

Of the premier companies you listed I've only have brief exposure to one - their recruiter was apprehensive/defensive/rude when pushed about equipment. It seemed like the tip of the iceberg so I stopped returning emails/phonecalls.

As was written elsewhere, if it was just one company, then it would be just that - one company. But I've been through 4.

I can't tell if you're purposefully not understanding...

You know how the page linked lists "the largest government contractors"? Try not working for a government contractor.

Have you even tried to get out of the defense contracting world and work at one of the non-shitty jobs that commenters here keep futilely trying to tell you exist?

That can be exteremly hard, if you're not writing code. Not all the roles and responsibilities directly translate to the world of private industry. For example a Systems Engineer in defense is loosely a product manager/ architect. However, it's impossible to get show all the responsibilities translate. Try explaining that to a recruiter... It tried for months.

I was in that boat for ~2 years (got out of it a little over a month ago). My problem was reduced in some respects, while amplified in others, because on my program systems engineers were developing signal processing algorithms[0] and implementing them in real-time signal processing software, in C. This caused all sorts of partial mismatches and misunderstandings, but ultimately the software piece got me out of there.

[edit] I would like to add that not being able to discuss what I did in meaningful detail was the most serious hindrance to my job search.

[0] This bit caused its own problems with a few companies, who saw "algorithms" and thought something else.

Yea, I'm pretty much a pure systems engineer. I'm working on teaching my self some code but it's not going to get me out of there. It's rough... I'm close though. Hopefully in a few weeks life will change.

Seriously. Try explaining PfM, UML, DoDAF or FEAF, to a recruiter. Or Troux, Primavera, System Architect, or DOORS. Or why ISSEP/ISSAP can be critical.

All while the recruiter is trying to do their job asking "Do you know C hashtag?" ... LOLWUT.

Yup, got called by Google. The "senior talent management engineer" had no idea what 'cost control measures' were. If within the first 10 seconds you can't tell me if I've got to pay out of pocket for visual studio of whatever else, then get lost.

Why are you even talking about that kind of thing in the first 10 seconds of talking to a recruiter? Discuss the terms of the job after you get offered the job.

Plus, I mean, have you done any research into the degree of coddling Google employees receive? You really think they provide you 3 gourmet meals per day, but not with the basic tools to perform your job?

I'm not sitting through 4 or more rounds of interviews with recruiters, senior recruiters, recruiter managers, technical recruiters, senior technical recruiters, technical recruiter managers, to finally reach the person capable of making a decision.

And exactly how can a recruiter brag about the company "gourmet" cafeteria (I'll pass on getting food poisoning from another gourmet cafeteria again), but doesn't know if the company provides the equipment?

It's they don't know, or more accurately won't disclose, then I'm just hanging up. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

> I'm not sitting through 4 or more rounds of interviews with recruiters, senior recruiters, recruiter managers, technical recruiters, senior technical recruiters, technical recruiter managers, to finally reach the person capable of making a decision.

Well that's a problem. What you think they're going to hire you because of your charm and winning personality?

And honestly, I seriously doubt there are many people who would doubt that google provides their employees with the basic tools to do their jobs. It's simply one of the most absurd things I've read.

A brief interview process is fine. You do the HR crap that justifies their existence and move to the technical rounds - I'll do 3. If after the third round of technical interviews the decision maker can't make up their mind, then I'll help them out.

As was written elsewhere, if google was so great, then why were their recruiters apprehensive/defensive when asked. If the answer was "Yes, sure we provide the equipment - I'll send you our plans, policies procedures, practices, processes, duties and scope, roles and responsibilities for that area!" - but it wasn't.

You've been in the strange government contract world for so long, simplest things outside it confuse you. Are you a full-time employee, with an indefinite job contract and paid vacations? Then the answer is yes, and the question is borderline absurd, particularly to someone at Google, where they give away two hot meals a day and assign $5k office chairs. Are you a contractor and get paid 2-3x times more per hour, at the expense of benefits and job 'security'? Then probably no.

Full time employee of the company? Yes, W2 not 1099 (sorry for the confusion)

Job contract? The company hold the contract with the government. Every contract has varying lengths comprised of yearly renewable options.

$5K chairs, right. Citation needed.

Your job sounds terrible, and you seem bitter about it. It doesn't have to be like that. I would think long and hard if I were you about figuring out what you can do to find a job you find more satisfactory.

oh no my objective is pretty clear. GET OUT.

Now I just need a requirements/Project Management/Product Manager/Developer Buffer role... :-/

You can probably find a PM role at larger corps, especially those that interface with the government.

Some of us know what DOORS is... to our dismay.

I'm shooting for smaller. :/

I've found DOORs easier to work with than ReqPro

It's excel on steroids.

Try learning OPNET's modeling and simulations tools without the benefit of books or their classes.

Uh, I was talking to the other person... but good!

Opps

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