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Comment by lhnz | Hacker News Reader

I am getting quite tired of listening to people argue for or against conformity.

You don't become a shepherd by making yourself into a black sheep.

And there is nothing wrong with conforming.

There is nothing wrong with wearing fashionable status symbols. There is nothing wrong with climbing hierarchies, nothing wrong with pleading for a comfortable life, or listening to what your friends think is cool. There really isn't. These are all suitable ways of enjoying your life.

We all seem to want to be rare. But what does rare get you?

Solitude.

Maybe you truly want this? But think it through: are the grapes so sour? We are social animals.

I covet the courage to be and do whatever I wish to. I don't need to be scared to be seen along side others. This is a whim to will.

It is crazy to want to be more of an individual than others just for the sake of it, and it has nothing to do with living the way I just mentioned.

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> Solitude.

I can remark on this. (20+ years. Not by choice, entirely.)

Your point regarding conformity is valid given the qualification that for the overwhelming majority that is a perfectly reasonable choice. This holds true even for some remarkably exceptional people. As an example, Euler somehow managed to be Euler and a family man. And then you have individuals such as Beethoven who seemed destined for solitude even though he was not happy about it at all.

> rare

The long standing mantra of "to thine own self be true" holds. This is the golden compass. For some, being true one's self may require the path of solitude. For others, it may not.

The rare thing is to follow the sage advice.

The post is not arguing against conformity - it is arguing against submission. It is arguing against a system that rewards submission.

I believe that a generation of extremely sophisticated, powerful, people who are eager to submit is a powerful and evil tool.

Fashionable status symbols are means by which one man dominates another. Many believe that a society of mutual respect will not seek tools of domination.

The issue with hierarchies is that they are historically weapons of oppression wielded against the marginal and unprivileged.

The issue with listening to what your friends think is cool is that your friends might be twats.

There really are problems with these behaviors, categorically. There really is a problem with submission, categorically. We are animals, we are spirits, we are not robots.

There's nothing wrong with robots. Be a robot if you want to. There are many people eager to use and reward you.

I generally like this sentiment, but I think there are definitely times when the grapes are too sour. If we aren't able to intellectually ask hard questions that challenge our own assumptions we will never recognize sour grapes.

"And there is nothing wrong with conforming. There is nothing wrong with wearing fashionable status symbols. There is nothing wrong with climbing hierarchies, nothing wrong with pleading for a comfortable life, or listening to what your friends think is cool. There really isn't. These are all suitable ways of enjoying your life."

There are important contextual distinctions that need to be addressed here. There is nothing wrong? That's as foolish as saying conformity isn't wrong. Right or wrong, it's not about the morality of it. It's about the message you're sending about yourself and your abilities.

A sheep needs to be guided, everyday and everywhere. If you're the kind of person that needs to be shown what's cool/interesting/important/not important/funny/stupid then ultimately you have no leadership abilities and I would never hire you for anything useful. It not only speaks volumes about your leadership abilities, but also about your self-confidence. You don't value your own personal views enough to act on them. You don't look/act/create with the belief that YOU know what you're doing.

If, at the end of the day, you find you're not very useful as your own body, then conforming is ultimately the best thing to do. I personally feel that anyone that tries to stop conforming and just act and be according to their own personality 100% won't fail though. You'll find your niche, and you'll dominate it.

I believe there are cases for being an outsider on purpose. For example, you may want to sacrifice being a part of particular social group (which you may happen to be born into) in order to increase your social mobility and gain future advantage. This may not be a conscious decision and does not exclude a possibility of fitting into another, desired social group later.

(Anecdotally, sometimes I have a feeling that lack of social interaction is an easy way to being if not a bit smarter, then at least more focused. However, some social interaction is still important, since 1) the lack of it isn't healthy, and 2) most of us in the end are working for the public anyway (sometimes without realizing it), so it's important to keep track that you work on the right things.)

I agree as well, but to a point. Do we really want our most targeted education resources being directed towards conformists? I think these institutions should be (almost) reserved for those who are pursuing leadership and cutting edge thinking.

Why do you think the place for noncomforists is in an institution? Why would they want to attend an institution?

No one is arguing for disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing. We're arguing for disagreeing only when it's the best option to disagree. As opposed to conforming to a worse option only out of fear of being different.

"Wrong" is subjective, but a clear consequence of conformism (as I just described) that one might want to avoid. Is that it makes you more vulnerable to sacrificing your own interests for the interest of others. And more often than not, that means being vulnerable to scammers.

Now do it like everyone else, and make me a sandwich.

This post, so far down the page, is why HN needs Reddit's feature of collapsing flamewars under highly voted flamebait posts.

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