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However they're also aware that they have a theme, which explicitly is "friendship, effort and victory" and their reader, guys or girls, old or young, buy their magazines because they want to see stories around that.
I think you're down voted because you have a shallow understanding of the topic, decide to focus on a small part of it and can only see it through your cultural lens (and somehow think mentioning that on a post he died, is appropriate) And people can probably see that even if they don't fully understand how the Manga culture in Japan work.
And in fact, "shounen" (or "shonen") is a genre that encapsulates those very values. Thus Shonen Jump is called as such, not because it's for boys and boys alone.
>I think you're down voted because you have a shallow understanding of the topic,
As a Japanese, the guy deserves those downvotes for being a legitimate bigot.
Thanks for this. I read this as you presuming me to be a Westerner Social Justice Warrior making gender progressive criticism. Rereading my comment, I can see how it may be interpreted this way interpreted.
To be clear, my original comment was not a criticism of Toriyama Akira, nor a suggesting Japan needs to be more gender progressive. The fact that people project this issue and respond so defensively is an indicator that gender issues remain a thorn in Japan.
> According to Shonen jumps own statistics, about 40% of their readers are women
Do they report if 40% of their executives or artists are women?
In general, we shouldn't take a company or institutions words at face value and look at what they actually do. According to China Evergrande and FTX's own sheets, they had health balance sheets. By China and Japan's own statistics, they have conflicting numbers on geopolitical matters.
I'm not saying Shonen Jump is in the same group as shady companies, but they are a for profit organization. Of course they are increasingly financially incentivized to not limit their customer base. If they were serious about being universal, they can change their name. Let's not evade around the fact that Shonen doesn't literally means 'boy'. I'm not suggesting that Shonen Jump needs to change their name, I'm just saying if they actually cared about gender equality, other then profiting off half the population, you'd see this reflected more.
Even if this cherry picked statistic is true, there could be more to it. I acknowledge Shonen Jump is increasing its female reader base, but that doesn't mean the bulk of their content is male centric. Maybe there's one series that appeals to female audience.
> They are very well aware of that fact and takes that in to account when they accept new series in to the magazine.
So I'm not wrong to suggest that the industry and company has been, atleast historically, male centric?
> have a theme, which explicitly is "friendship, effort and victory"
It seems most of the victories are through physical combat. From my western "cultural lens", that's usually a sign of male centricity.
> their reader, guys or girls, old or young
Would love to see a statistic on what percentage of Shonen Jump's readers are 60 year old ladies.
> I think you're down voted because you have a shallow understanding of the topic... don't fully understand how the Manga culture
My understanding is shallow because the subject is not deep. It's only complex if you to do mental gymnastics to defend and explain away Japan's male patriarchy.
Since you want to portray that culture is more progressive then it is, and it is I who is ignorant to how progressive the culture is, can you enlighten me why all female artist collectives like this exist? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clamp_(manga_artists). Are there major publishing houses ran by such groups of women?
> (and somehow think mentioning that on a post he died, is appropriate)
I never criticized Toriyama Akira. It is people who are projecting gender progressive issues
They literally where girl friends drawing yaoi dojinshi together. It's pretty common for a group of people with the same hobby to promote their hobby to a business.
Hopefully I don't have to explain why with was a girls-only "club".
This a very strange desire considering the magazine literally have word "shonen" in its title.
You do realize that they also have shojo and josei manga?
>My understanding is shallow because the subject is not deep.
Maybe you should do at least scratch the surface? https://www.animemangastudies.com/search-results/?Title=wome...
Right, meaning boy. Which I originally stated as not being a deep topic. So why try to pretend Shonen Jump is this progressive brand for universal audiences. Doing mental gymnastics to twist the meaning of “boy” to mean this inclusive theme of victory for all.
> shojo and josei
But, as with many things Japanese, the boys and men take first precedence. Is this not indicative of the male patriarchy? Why not name It Shojo Jump then? Does that make you uncomfortable? Or do you have some denialist answer about how naming it “Shojo Jump” would be awkward or “strange” in the Japanese language? If that’s strange, then it suggests to me the male patriarchy is so deeply institutionalized and embedded that you can’t possibly reason outside of it
Thank you for mansplaining the existence of Japanese feminist studies. Can you please mansplain why “women’s colleges” exist in Japan? And why feminist studies are almost always resigned to these institutions. To most Americans, that would be a weird and ironic concept.
You think asking whether any 60 year old women are actually readers is a “strange question”? Why? Because the answer is a statistically low number? Me too.
You’re agreeing and confirming my very points. Maybe you can’t pickup on the sarcasm and irony here.
OK, now do Shonen Knife.
You are the only person here doing this. This is a magazine targeted at male audience and every person in this thread was telling you this. Does this mean girls don't read Naruto or One Piece? Of course not. This does not mean SJ is trying to be proggressive. And there is no reason for it to trying being one.
>But, as with many things Japanese, the boys and men take first precedence.
You might want to read about economy and markets. The best selling shojo magazine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_manga_magazin...) has numbers 8 times less then best selling shonen magazine. Which one will you be invesing in?
>Is this not indicative of the male patriarchy?
No, it is not.
The fact that SJ sells 8 times more than Ciao indicates that boys (and some percent of girls) tend to spend more on manga with a certain set of traints.
>Why not name It Shojo Jump then? Does that make you uncomfortable?
No, it does not make me uncomfortable, it's just stupid.
You can name it "for girs and boys" or "for teens" - that would be completely ok with me personally and with anyone else.
>Can you please mansplain why “women’s colleges” exist in Japan?
I wasn't mansplaining anything. It is unfortunate that you see it this way but that's your problem, not mine.
As for the "why" - I'm not a culturologist to give you and aducated opinion on the topic (neither I'm a japanese, just to be clear), but as as I know many countries (including the US) have boys-only and girls-only schools\colleges etc.
>And why feminist studies are almost always resigned to these institutions.
If you give a few examples I can talk to an old friend on my. He is anthropologist in the University of Toronto. This is not his field, but maybe he can help finding someone with expertise in this question. _If_ you are actually interensted.
>You think asking whether any 60 year old women are actually readers
Of this specific mangazine, yes. Older women can read whatever they prefer, not questioin here. I just doubt that the % of them reading something like One Piece is very low.
>You’re agreeing and confirming my very points.
No I'm not. That's just your complacency.
The man just died, and your initial reaction is "but his work was male centric". Find a better time.
Appealing to men is okay. Also, there are lots of women that also love and were inspired by Dragon Ball.
Only if you're interpreting my comment to be a criticism . I never used the word "but" nor intended to detract from the significance of his work; it was not suggestion that Toriyama Akira's work could be improved (i.e. by being less male centric).
And no, that was not my initial reaction. If it was, I would have left a top level comment to this end. I did leave a top level comment, recognizing his other work Dragon Quest (since Dragon Ball is already recognized by this HN audience). My comment, again, is a specific nitpicking of OP's claim.
> Appealing to men is okay.
I never said it was not okay.
Why is it bad to have a male centric story? Diversity means that we have some male centric stories, some female centric stories, and some stories with both. You don't "improve" things by making everything more similar, you just remove diversity.
You misread and understand the sentence you quoted.
I am not suggesting being less male centric is an improvement.
A mourning thread is not the place to start arguments about technicalities.
You're right. It was not a criticism nor value judgement of Dragon Ball, Toriyama Akira, nor Japan.
> nitpicking
You're right. It was a semantic nitpicking of OP's claim of universal transcendence.
> A mourning thread is not the place to start arguments about technicalities.
I agree with you in principal, but HN had no qualms starting arguments about technicalities and non-technicalities when it came to other mourning threads. Recently, there was a nobel nominee where more then half the comments were criticism. Things get especially tribal and protectionist whenever Japan and Japanese pop culture is involved.
Here's the thing about nitpicking in a high emotion thread. You have to be completely correct if you don't want to be piled on... and especially here, you aren't.
The OP didn't make a claim of universal transcendence, they listed specific categories (cultures, languages, and generations) that the work transcends. Categories that most works don't transcend. This is inherently praise for the author.
Your bringing up of a separate category that it doesn't transcend when there was no original claim that it transcended this category is either off topic, or a criticism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira_Toriyama#Style
What he did does not stop the next generation to fight for a more gender equal Japan or the World.
Neither did I.
So? Are you implying that this makes it less important?
Barbie is female centric, and there's nothing wrong with that either. Gender doesn't matter in this context.
Gender has blown up as this big divisive, team sports thing recently, and honestly it's starting to become annoying and hurtful. It's okay for something to cater to a predominantly male or female audience. There's nothing wrong with that, and there never has been.
There's nothing here to be offended about.
OP claimed Dragon Ball is universal and transcendent. I'm merely nitpicking that it is not. Same as I would with barbie.
> there's nothing wrong with that either.
Didn't say there was.
> Gender doesn't matter in this context.
Well it is relevant because you just admitted Barbie is female centric.
> Gender has blown up as this big divisive, team sports thing recently, and honestly it's starting to become annoying and hurtful
Yes, and that's why I asked what is the response to my comment.
> It's okay for something to cater to a predominantly male or female audience.
Yes, I agree. That's why I pointed out that different manga genres exist. And no one refuted this point.
> There's nothing wrong with that, and there never has been.
I agree.
> There's nothing here to be offended about.
Exactly. I wasn't making any criticism nor was I offended about it. I was tunnel visioned on the philosophical point of something being universal and transcendent. It's everyone else who had a knee jerk reaction to my comment being some kind of gender criticism
No he wrote:
> Dragon Ball transcends cultures, languages, and generations like few creative works I can think of do.
Nowhere did he say it is universal or that it transcends gender in anyway. You are arguing against nothing here.