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Comment by wilfra | Hacker News Reader

In Thailand this situation is quite terrible. The Mafia collects people with missing limbs and other disfigurations, basically the people who will elicit the greatest sympathy, and forces them to sit on the same corners begging day after day, month after month and year after year - and turn all of the money they collect over to them. If they steal any, they die. In return they are provided with the bare minimum subsistence living one could imagine.

This situation is so bad that the country had to pass a law giving the death penalty to anybody dismembering children for the purposes of turning them into beggars - because people were doing that on a large scale.

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It's similar in India, although Indians from the more respectable classes find it just as shocking as a westerner would, and find it hard to believe this happens in their country.

It's funny, in Dungeons and Dragons, "beggar" is the lowest ranking person in a thieves' guild.

The situation is similar in Sweden, but I have thankfully not heard of anyone disfiguring someone else for these purposes. Yet.

One of the glorious benefits of being a member of the EU is that we now have to put up with organized gangs of beggars coming in from Romania, Bulgaria etc harassing us on our streets. (The leftists have proposed that we add these people to our welfare rolls and give them their own apartments - an entitlement not available even to Swedish citizens, mind you. Of course, the only reasonable response is to institute a sufficiently vague law against vagrancy and then deport them.)

Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals?

If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism.

If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay?

Talking about apartments, do you agree on the principle that access to public housing should be given to those most in need? Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin? If you do, what is the problem them? If you do not, why?

Question for the US readers: do scenes like those depicted in Steinbeck's novel The grapes of wrath still happen? Are people from rural zones like Oklahoma's countryside treated as filthy dangerous foreigners in California? Because that is what we are seeing and experiencing right now in the EU.

I'm Romanian, and I have no problem with Muzza's comment. He's perfectly right. If anything, we can breathe a bit easier here in Romania with all the gangs gone to better countries.

I do disagree though that deporting is the way to go. The problem is real, and shoving it under the carpet doesn't really solve much of it. What is needed is an EU-wide solution, and it needs to be well-thought and well implemented, because the problem isn't easier.

We've had a lot of negative feedback here in Romania because of the various criminals we exported to Italy. To my surprise when I went to visit Rome I found surprisingly large, very prosper and very hard-working Romanian minority. Yes, we exported beggars and criminals, but the number of "legitimate" immigrants was dwarfing them.

This is the main purpose of an open EU - to move labor, capital and markets where they are naturally needed. I'm pretty sure even northern countries like Germany, France or Holland (and quite possibly even Sweden) benefit from highly trained immigrants from Eastern Europe. I personally know Romanian doctors who lives in each of those countries. Sadly, Romania can't afford to retain good doctors - but this is how an open market works.

> If anything, we can breathe a bit easier here in Romania with all the gangs gone to better countries.

Ha! At least two parties (the gangs and the Romanians in Romania) are profiting.

> I do disagree though that deporting is the way to go. The problem is real, and shoving it under the carpet doesn't really solve much of it. What is needed is an EU-wide solution, and it needs to be well-thought and well implemented, because the problem isn't easier.

Yes. My criticism concerns only various leftists who believe that Romania's (and Bulgaria's, etc) problems should be solved by Sweden alone.

> If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force.

The Swedes likely don't have a problem with Bulgarians. He says Bulgarians and Romanians so he means gypsies. He may not know this but even if he does he's Swedish so saying that it's a gypsy problem would get him in shit socially.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/myqdy/why_do_euro...

Read the parent post again, no problem with Bulgarian people in general.

What's with your xenophobia/racism haunch? It is not unreasonable to discuss such effects due to relative open - e.g. compared to US - borders.

Last year in Germany I myself saw 'gangs of beggars'. While not a problem, it annoys me when on touristic places you'll get asked for money every two minutes from one of the (romanian) women with child. It feels like an industry.

It feels like an industry.

It is an industry. Most of these gangs are exactly that: organised gangs. In a recent documentary in Ireland, they studied the problem and even followed them back to their own countries (where they lived in mansions). One of the women they followed carried a baby around for 14 hours while begging and it turned out it wasn't even hers - a number of the women shared this baby as a tool to gain more money while begging.

A friend of mine once overheard a beggar talking on the phone complaining that he only made €500 that day...

Not all beggars are like this, of course. Some genuinely fell on hard times. I have no problem buying someone food or paying their bus fare (if I have the money), or donating money to charities which help these people directly, but I refuse to ever give someone who is on the street begging for money anything.

The same reason you don't say black beggars or Mexican criminals. The racial or national background of these people might be interesting for sociologists but it's unhelpful in everyday discussions. It strips people of their dignity, whether it's intentional or not. Don't be that guy.

It is interesting and helpful, because the reasons that these beggars are operating in Sweden was given (internal migration within the EU).

If he hadn't said it, replies would have expressed surprise that the prosperous Swedes had resorted to aggressive organised criminal behaviour, and there would have been speculation on why that is.

There would also have been questions on why the government hasn't done anything about it yet, which he also addressed in his comment.

Stop telling us what we can and can't talk about.

Look, this is about good manners, not censorship. Everything you've just said is trivial and unhelpful. Naming ethnicities this way will only make you look like a fool and undermine the point you're trying to make.

If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force.

Unfortunately the legal system here (and I assume elsewhere in the EU) doesn't cover this situation so there is little I or the police can do.

Talking about apartments, do you agree on the principle that access to public housing should be given to those most in need?

I think the point was that they do not need them and even their own citizens don't get this.

> Have you a problem with Bulgarian people or Bulgarian criminals?

> If you have a problem with Bulgarian people in general, then, well, that is called xenophobia or more simply racism.

Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets. I am actually kind of sad for that, because I'm sure you and I could in fact get along quite beautifully. But the fact still remains: when I go out, I don't wish to be accosted by beggars. This is human nature.

> If you have a problem with Bulgarian criminals, then complain to your police force. How come you able to spot such criminals so easily while they cannot? Did you make precise and detailed reports to the police about cases you witnessed, experienced personally or know from local hearsay?

My bloody point was that vagrancy SHOULD be a crime. It ISN'T at present. (Also, the police are corrupt and willing to overlook crime when it suits them.)

> Do you also agree on the principle that the needs for every lawful person should be addressed regardless of their country of origin?

Certainly not. I find it totally absurd that if I (a Swedish citizen who's paid a lot of tax to the Swedish state) were to wind up on the streets, the Swedish state could quite possibly refuse me even a bed at a homeless shelter, at the same as a foreigner should be given his or her own apartment, no questions asked. This is not just. It's borderline evil.

> Presumably you are Bulgarian and I have offended you by not being nice to those compatriots of you who are begging on my streets.

No, I am not a Bulgarian or a Romanian. But yes, I am offended by people who use nationalities to denote groups of criminals. I am not that old, yet I have heard "Albanian", "Italian", "Spanish", "Polish", "Romanian", "Turkish", "Portuguese", "African", "Brazilian", "Senegalese", "Nigerian", "Egyptian", "Moroccan", "Chinese", "Arab" and many other demonyms used as an insult and to identify the latest and biggest threat to EU security and welfare systems. I find it difficult to think that all the Albanians, Italians, Spanish, Polish, etc., are all criminals. I am pretty sure that each country has its own fair share of criminals and that many of these flew to other countries in order to exploit their there-unknown cons, but I doubt that this warrants anyone the possibility to call out a whole nation as a problematic issue.

> when I go out, I don't wish to be accosted by beggars. This is human nature.

Isn't compassion part of human nature as well?

> My bloody point was that vagrancy SHOULD be a crime. It ISN'T at present.

It is in many EU countries. Many people in those countries complain just like you do.

An old saying of my country says «Never say "I will never drink from that spring"». You never know what may happen. There are many homeless people on the streets right now that used to be plain middle-class workers only 5 years ago. [1] Also, vagrancy, and homelessness in general, are on the rise. [2] An hungry person will not care much about anti-vagrancy laws. It will came to you and ask for help.

> (Also, the police are corrupt and willing to overlook crime when it suits them.)

This is your problem, not foreigners' problems. Your police is subject to bribery from gangs from other countries, what is the most effective action? Fix your police system or kick out gang X waiting for gang Y to start bribing the police?

[1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/29/middle-class-family... [2] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17303892

> No, I am not a Bulgarian or a Romanian. But yes, I am offended by people who use nationalities to denote groups of criminals. I am not that old, yet I have heard "Albanian", "Italian", "Spanish", "Polish", "Romanian", "Turkish", "Portuguese", "African", "Brazilian", "Senegalese", "Nigerian", "Egyptian", "Moroccan", "Chinese", "Arab" and many other demonyms used as an insult and to identify the latest and biggest threat to EU security and welfare systems. I find it difficult to think that all the Albanians, Italians, Spanish, Polish, etc., are all criminals. I am pretty sure that each country has its own fair share of criminals and that many of these flew to other countries in order to exploit their there-unknown cons, but I doubt that this warrants anyone the possibility to call out a whole nation as a problematic issue.

Straw man. I have never suggested that all Bulgarians (or Romanians) are criminals. For Christ's sake, I even acknowledge that the current beggars on the streets where I live AREN'T criminals!

> Isn't compassion part of human nature as well?

I pay a 30% income tax (and my employer pays an additional 30% in payroll taxes, which is of course simply a hidden tax on me) and then 25% VAT on everything I buy. This pays for much welfare. I think it's /exceedingly/ compassionate of me to give away such a large part of my income - certainly more than the Christian concept of tithe. My compassion is not endless, however. And neither is yours.

But I wonder, why aren't the Bulgarians compassionate towards their own countrymen? Why don't you criticize them?

> This is your problem, not foreigners' problems. Your police is subject to bribery from gangs from other countries, what is the most effective action? Fix your police system or kick out gang X waiting for gang Y to start bribing the police?

I never suggested it was the foreigners' problems. Please stop your fucking straw man arguments.

I believe if you just call said vagrants/thieves what they are: gypsies, Bulgarians will be less likely to be insulted.

Us Romanians are more used to being confused with gypsies than Bulgarians, I guess. Gypsies even when to the trouble of renaming themselves to "Rroms", so they are more easily confused with Romanians.

Downvoting because its ridiculous to compare the situation in Sweden with that of Thailand (the difference is immense), because it engages in leftist bashing (I'm sure there must be very few 'leftists' if any who really say "lets build new apartments for foreign criminals whilst Swedes get nothing", although this is exactly what you imply they say), and because you claim to answer a complex and nuanced issue with a single sweeping generalisation.

His comment was relevant to the discussion, and was a relevant comment reply (talking about organised gangs using begging to further their goals).

I'm guessing you just want to shut out views that are at all critical of immigration, or even just seem to be. You want to shut down that discussion entirely.

I'd downvote you, but that button doesn't appear for me.

Sorry, but I feel like you are putting words into my mouth here. I downvoted for the specific reasons mentioned, none of which were about my views on immigration (which you might be surprised to know are not one-sided at all). I'd also be happy to have a discussion about immigration, but at most it is a side issue in this thread and the above post.

I don't want to get into an argument here, but its hard not to refute the views you seem to be imposing on me.

I apologise if I have misrepresented you. You are right, I do not know what your views are.

> organized gangs of beggars

I'd say that that part is similar, and it is not something I was aware of. So, I find this informative and contributing to the discussion.

Some of the other language might be viewed as a bit slanted. Or it might be viewed as a bit ironic. Given that uncertainty, I didn't find it too extreme. (Although, I am in the U.S. and so separated from the particular circumstance, and my judgment/opinion is of limited value.)

P.S. I should add that I have not yet read all the ensuing responses, which I am now getting to and which might change my opinion somewhat. But, based just on the original comment, I think the above applies to it.

P.P.S. HN is getting way too political. Reading through this thread reinforces this impression. Makes me sorry to have commented on it. OTOH, I rather liked the description of RMS's approach, and I found it informative to read comments on the "industry" behind some of the world's begging. (To which begging, like many other commentors here, I have a hard time formulating a coherent response that I find helpful, practical, and coherent.)

We have the same problems in Ireland. There was a documentary recently where they followed some of these people back to their homes in Romania to find that they owned mansions back home - the same people were begging and collecting social welfare here (some were collecting social welfare for children who either weren't even their own or weren't in the country).

Exporting organised crime will not solve your problems. Especially regarding the EU.

http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15932840,00.html

http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,15921927,00.html

http://www.thelocal.de/national/20120503-42321.html

http://www.thelocal.se/31650/20110126/

http://www.economist.com/node/6919139

...etc.

I am 100% confident that deporting all foreign beggars in Sweden will solve the problem of foreign beggars in Sweden. I don't really care if this doesn't get to the "bottom of the problem" or whatever. I (or the Swedish people in general) simply cannot be held responsible for the suffering of the entire fucking world.

Your links don't make any sense. The DDR used slave labor? Ingvar Kamprad uses various tax avoidance schemes? Did you choose them simply because they are related to Sweden?

3 Free movement of capital

4 Free movement of services

5 Free movement of people

    5.1 Free movement of workers

    5.2 Free movement for the non-economically active

    5.3 The Schengen Area

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms_%28European_Unio...

I also invite you to read the labels of ie. the plying wooden chairs and crude mugs from which all those world-mesmerising profits arise.

What is your point? Do you think I'm somehow ignorant of what the EU means? I know about the free movement of people - I reject it since it has negative consequences for me!

For some reason you are unwilling to come right out and simply say what you think about IKEA, thus leaving me to read your mind. Presumably your argument goes something like this:

"Ingvar Kamprad is Swedish, Ingvar Kamprad used forced labor in the GDR, therefore all Swedish people must pay for these sins by putting up with foreign beggars on their streets".

Your presumption is wrong. I gave examples of free movements of products, services and capital. If you are ready to accept these freedoms, you should also accept the other items packaged in this very same deal: the free movement of people.

The Swiss also like to cherry pick the good stuff from the Europe, just like everybody. Not taking responsibility of the economic externalities, as the euphemism goes, is not sustainable. Economically speaking of the West, the short-term advantages of this short-sightedness are over.

> If you are ready to accept these freedoms

Who says I am? I am not Ingvar Kamprad.

Democracy and freedom are double-edged swords by their very nature.You are perfectly entitled as an individual to reject those freedoms.

I think you as an individual then should be slapped with a visa requirement to visit all other nations in Europe. Then you'll have fun strutting around with your papers to all the different embassies - which I guess you'd certainly prefer than having foreign beggars around. Or you could stay in Sweden forever if you don't even want to do that. We certainly wouldn't mind.

What a brilliant "solution": if somebody does something you are not happy with... just deport them!

Certainly. Foreign criminals are deported all the time.

You (and I) are responsible if you are enjoying your privileges while – through no fault of their own - others suffer.

Sweden and the west got rich through luck and exploitation. You are privileged. You are lucky. Recognize that and act on it.

I'm extremely happy to see that there are still generous people around. You see, I'm African, and when I see the current mess in my continent, I think that we should do something about it.

Since you disagree with Muzza, I would suggest that we create a partnership in which we bring every african beggar to your country (Sweden?). That's a lot, and it'll probably severely mess up your country, but hey, here's your opportunity to act on your words!

/sarcasm

On a more serious note, would you want all the beggars in the world to go to Sweden? Why not? Oh, because it's too much and it wouldn't be good for Sweden right? Well every person has a different tolerance threshold for "what is good for Sweden". Maybe someone would argue with you that making Sweden an asylum for all the world's beggars is the ultimate way of repairing for your sins, and then call you a fascist for not wanting to do it.

Well you're doing exactly the same with Muzza. What you consider something very reasonable (hosting Roumanian beggars and providing them with apartments or whatever) is seen as unacceptable by someone else.

I guess I disliked your patronizing tone: people have different opinions and tolerance, and yours is no better or worse than any other.

West did not get rich through luck and exploitation. Particularly Europe didn't. If you look at the map, it's just some tiny backwater at the end of the world with little natural resources. Yes, there was plenty of exploitation but that's hardly unique to the western culture. And European peasants were the ones exploited for the most part.

West has gotten rich because of its culture which allowed for development of science and technology (or at least hindered it the least), private property and enterprise, stable governments, honored contracts, and -- perhaps the cause of all those freedoms -- no single hegemon for much of its history and so a ruthless competition between the states on all field.

You're confusing cause with effect. It's not exploitation that made Europeans do much better than the rest of the world, they were already doing much better which allowed them to conquer the world.

To the degree I am privileged as a Westerner is not the result of luck or exploitation. It is the result of a very specific tradition of rights and governance. My obligation is to fight to protect and continue that tradition.

I am certainly not responsible in any way for (for instance) Romania's poverty. There was this guy called Ceaușescu; he had a little bit to do with it.

It is an open secret, that as all dictators, the Ceaușescus were also maintained by powers outside Romania. His wife was elected as member of the Illinois Academy of Sciences, besides multiple doctorate honoris, ie. from the Faculty of Sciences of Nice (and if I remember correctly, member of the Académie). Seemed like an approval of Western Europe, so to me it seems, that they had a little bit to do with the current situation. Actually little has changed since at the core, despite appearances.

And once again the Swede* must atone for the sins of others (such as the Académie française).

* Or more generally: white Western European.

that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human. This is the point. A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one. Your nationalist attitude is baseless.

You happen to be born in sweden, they happen to be born in romania. If the tables were turned I'm sure you wouldn't think too highly of people with your opinion.

The tables are turned. Someone born in Western Europe might well lead a life of poverty while a Japanese or South Korean person will have a great education, get a job straight out of university, and not want for material needs. Will South Korea or Japan donate their money to help such people, or allow them immigrate to their safe countries? They will not. Do you think the Chinese will?

So basically, you think we shouldn't have welfare because you're not allowed to immigrate to China.

I don't know how you got that out of what I said. I think welfare is quite good.

> that may be so, but the actual beggars are not at fault, and this is important. simply because someone was not born within the borders of your country does not make them any less human.

I have never denied anyone their humanity, only insisted that I shouldn't have to support them.

> A swedish life is worth no more or less than a romanian one.

If we are all equal, why do the left insist that a Romanian arriving in Sweden should have more entitlements than a Swedish citizen?

While you basically built this country? It happens that Swedes who are actually paid to think(or paid at all) don't often share your views. This might be because they are not expecting life to be a free ride just because they were born here.

1) It does not follow from "I am not responsible for Romania's poverty" that I claimed "I built Sweden". Läs om, läs rätt. 2) I am not unemployed, nor paid to work with my hands. 3) Even unemployed people and manual laborers can have valid views on things, you elitist. 4) I never once mentioned wanting a free ride!

so where do you stand on Brevik, both motive and method?

The answer is mu ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29 ). There is no link between mass murder and the deportation of criminals; my stance on Breivik is irrelevant.

motive vs method.

The situation is not similar in Sweden. In fact, from the entire planet, Sweden is one of most dissimilar places.

I fail to see how the gypsy beggars are the problem and not your legislation or enforcement. If hostile begging is an issue, legislate it out of the streets. Pass a law that would criminalise it once you've been caught three times.

Instead of complaining, you better appeal to your fellow citizens and solve it

> I fail to see how the gypsy beggars are the problem and not your legislation or enforcement. If hostile begging is an issue, legislate it out of the streets.

He did explain why that wasn't being done.

> Instead of complaining, you better appeal to your fellow citizens and solve it.

Wouldn't that involve some complaining?

Anyway, I notice you didn't say that to wilfra. Why doesn't he get accused 'complaining'?

Why didn't you try to solve the issues in your post with action instead of with complaining?

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