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Comment by hnenjoyer_93 | Hacker News Reader

Interesting that some time ago Red filed a lawsuit against Nikon for using a RAW video compression algorithm that Red claimed infringed its patents, but later dismissed it:

https://dpreview.com/news/5338402238/red-is-suing-nikon-for-...

https://dpreview.com/news/9301564383/nikon-denies-red-s-laws...

https://www.newsshooter.com/2023/04/28/red-patent-lawsuit-ag...

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Am I reading this right in that Red has somehow managed to patent the idea of compressing 4K RAW footage on device which holds up the whole industry?

Not quite. The claims, in the only one I've seen regarding RAW compression, are for a specific pre-emphasis curve being applied to the raw data, then the raw data being compressed and only cover this being done in a video camera.

When looking at a patent check the "Claims" section. An infringing device would have to perform those steps in the order provided for the patent holder to have a claim.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, but I've had a lot of dealing with patents.

the patent is this one: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7830967B1/en

Which looks like it's patenting debayering. However I'm not a patent lawyer so I don't know.

I suspect that Nikon were using something like jpeg2000 to store raw frames, and thats why RED were getting all pissy.

It’s patenting compressing the raw photo site values before debayering, which saves space and in theory allows for better, non-realtime debayering algorithms (more relevant when the patent was filed).

if its not an actual algorithm, but merely the thought of compressing the raw data (im not saying it is/isnt, I dont know), then its obviously totally ridiculous, and frankly, anyone that would even presume to think one should apply for such a patent should just be taken out back and disposed of. And then of course the patent office aswell

Maybe, Redcode is based on JPEG2000

https://youtu.be/IJ_uo-x7Dc0

> Maybe, Redcode is based on JPEG2000

Oh it is JPEG2000, I _think_ it used to be stored in a tar-like wrapper, but I could be misremembering. however It is 100% JPEG2000.

It must be a specific implementation because Black Magic has had their own brand of this for years and don’t seem to have been targeted by RED, though I may be out of the loop on something?

Blackmagic raw is actually debayered in the camera, which would avoid RED’s “compress raw video by color plane” patent.

> A drawback of Blackmagic RAW over other RAW formats is that it does a partial de-bayer within the camera. This means that you are not actually working with fully raw data from the camera sensor. According to the Blackmagic website the “noise management, sensor profiling and new edge reconstruction algorithms” are part of the partial de-mosaic.

They settled out of court, Nikon started paying licensing fees. Was confirmed by Jarred on a podcast last year.

Maybe that’s what’s partially responsible for the acquisition - also Red struggling to get market share from Arri Alexa on bigger budget productions, and facing pretty stiff competition from lower priced cameras by Blackmagic, Sony etc

Makes sense from a Nikon perspective: I have to pay anyway, over period X that amounts to sum Y, put that next the acquisition price and the estimatebof how long you want to use the tech you are paying for and there is your business case.

Plus, you get new business and a new product range you don't have yet. That alone justifies an acquisition.

Right, its like RED was in the middle market, which is a bad place to be in any product/industry. Too expensive for consumers, but still not able to command premium pricing from top end pros?

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