[flagged]
And still, the UN says the Hamas' numbers are realistic, and the Lancet says they are realistic[0].
Meanwhile, some parts of the IDF claim every death of a military-age male was the death of a "terrorist".
[0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
Israel currently has no standing to dispute those numbers.
>Any article or media organization that does not point this out instantly loses credibility.
by that logic, any article or media organization that fails to point out the information in the references below also instantly loses credibility.
[0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas...
Is Israel preventing journalists from entering Gaza? If so, how does this reconcile with the OP article?
Do you have even a glimpse of evidance? or are we speculating now? They deaths are published by full name and national number. Regardless, the masscare is ongoing and the exact number doesn't change anything. It's not like there's a certain threshold they aimed for.
It's disgusting that your first response to reading 30,000 people were killed was to speculate and try to undertone it.
The initial militant attack took 253 people hostage. As reprehensible as that is, it's not worth 10,000 civilian deaths.
Further, when you compare civilian casualties to other wars, even other wars in neighboring countries, the casualty rate is extremely low.
I think much of what's been done in Gaza is indefensible (the culpability is shared, but it's an enormous amount of culpability, there's plenty for Netanyahu to account for). But the logic of X Israelis to Y Palestinians doesn't hold and doesn't illuminate.
I'm not pro Israel because they are my "favorite team" or "preferred fandom". If Israel or any batik. I am pro Israel because, of the two competing narratives, theirs makes the most rational sense, and I do not ever hear rational rebuttals. Like never. If you have one, that'd be great. I mean, it would suck, but I wouldn't dismiss it. But you would be unique. I only ever hear debunked accusations rotated with diversion, whatabouts, non-sequitur, threats and counter accusations.
Never, for instance, a rational answer to why people just accept Hamas' death toll without any skepticism. In fact, apparently the thread has been flagged. Still no direct response, though.
Have you been similarly concerned by the extremely high rates of ongoing civilian casualties in Syria, Sudan, and Yemen? Those of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?
My question was genuine. Are you as outraged over the deaths of the collective over 1M Syrians, Yemeni and Sudanese civilians as you are about the 10-30k Gazans?
And yet, it's Israel that has killed 30-50k... so far.
> who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure
Gaza is a very dense, urban area, so it's kind of unavoidable. And you know as well as I do that these "rockets" are barely more than overgrown fireworks - they are mostly symbolic. That said, I do feel like Hamas are fools for continuing to fire them - I understand they need to resist blockade, occupation and dehumanisation, but I just can't see how this could possibly help.
> We know this is true because Hamas leadership has been saying this for decades
Except, thats not really true, is it? Hamas have been openly saying for several years now that they have no beef with people of the Jewish faith, they just want their homes back.
This is why Hamas hides weapons inside of schools, mosques and hospitals, according to you?
We have seen plenty of credible evidence. Just, no evidence that you will accept.
You literally did say that. In response to:
>> "who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure"
You said:
> "Gaza is a very dense, urban area, so it's kind of unavoidable."
But ok, if you really are commenting in good faith then also explain why Hamas puts military hardware inside of schools, mosques and hospitals.
Are you one of those people who insist that Israel must have everything signed in triplicate and verified by 20 credible sources while Hamas just has to gesture vaguely?
United Nations Report on Schools: A report from the United Nations confirmed that Hamas stored weapons in UNRWA schools during the conflict in Gaza. Notably, weapons were found in the UNRWA Jabalia Elementary “C” and Ayyobiya Boys School. The report highlighted that it was highly likely that Palestinian armed groups used these premises to hide weapons and, in some cases, to launch attacks. The UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon condemned these actions as unacceptable, stating that such conduct put UN schools at risk
https://www.thetower.org/1955-un-report-confirms-hamas-store...
Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) Evidence: The IDF has released photos showing that terrorist groups placed rocket launchers next to schools in Gaza. This action aligns with long-standing charges against Hamas for using civilian infrastructure for military purposes
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-releases-photos-showing-te...
White House Intelligence on Al Shifa Hospital: The White House disclosed that it had intelligence indicating Hamas was using Gaza's largest hospital, Al Shifa, to run military operations and likely to store weapons. This information suggested that Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad were using some hospitals in the Gaza Strip, including Al Shifa, to support their military operations and possibly to hold hostages. The actions at Al Shifa hospital were described as constituting a war crime
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/white-house-says-i...
Hamas Planted Explosives Inside A Gaza Kindergarten: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQefwUWJwz8
Hamas Fighting in Civilian Clothes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk7IKvIROXk
UN Report: Hamas probably raped Israeli women, some men, even corpses:
Not literally, no. My comment was in response to the general case of "in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure" - that truly is unavoidable. You then stretched that to the inside of schools, mosques and hospitals.
I don't have time to go through the first two links, but if the first is from UN I'll certainly take it at face value. As for the second link, I'm sorry, but when the IDF has told so very many lies, and been caught in them so many times - the IDF simply cannot be trusted.
> White House Intelligence on Al Shifa Hospital
Who later admitted that their intel came from... the IDF! And Al Shifa!... the hospital where the IDF produced that ridiculous 3D rendering to show the hospital as some kind of high-tech "terror HQ - all designed to manufacture consent for attacking the hospital. And of course, it all turned out to be BS.
> The actions at Al Shifa hospital were described as constituting a war crime
If Hamas was using Al Shifa as a base for military opertions, those actions would arguably have constituted a war crime, yes. But as it turned out, there was no evidence.
I do have to say, it's kind of odd for proponents of Israel's ethnic cleansing/genocide to bring up war crimes. Especially since Israel has contravened 62 UN resolutions, and Netenyahu has publicly stated he will ignore international law.
Not a thing that happened, but it has a become a truism in certain circles that Jews lie, which naturally transforms to "IDF lies".
> it's kind of odd for proponents of Israel's ethnic cleansing/genocide to bring up war crimes
Your poison pill aside, it's not odd for proponents of Israel to bring up war crimes because Israel is a civilized, democratic nation who values the rule of law. Her opponents, however, do not, and will accuse in a mirror.
No, that is not what they have been saying. That's what you have been hearing, but they have been saying they want the area to be under Muslim control. They could have had their homes back decades ago if they accepted Israeli rule. No. When they say "Free Palestine" you hear Western ideas of freedom, democracy, sovereignty, dignity. They mean "Free Palestine of Jews". We know this because they say it and act on it, repeatedly.
"accepted Israeli rule?!". If Russia decides to occupy your country, would you be so accepting?!
Never mind the fact that the West Bank shows exactly what happens when you "accept Israeli rule" - living under a brutal, dehumanising apartheid regime.
This is revisionist history - Gaza was never even part of Egypt! [0] Netanyahu's plans for "Greater Israel" (which includes the West Bank and Gaza) also run contrary to this claim.
> Israel doesn't want it
Israel's actions say otherwise. And let's not forget that Israel continues to illegally occupy land in Lebanon and Syria - they absolutetly want more land, and Gaza would be perfect for a port, some nice beachfront properties etc.
Also, why have they built a road bisecting Gaza? Why are many Israelis discussing the occupation of northern Gaza like it's a done deal? Why are Israelis holding meetings to plan building settlements in Gaza, attended by gov ministers? Why has Israel given out deals to oil companies for fields off the north coast of Gaza?
So confident and yet so wrong. This is literally history. Are you pro-Hamas because you don't know the history of the region, or do you not know the history region because you're motivated to ignore it where it contradicts your pro-Hamas narrative?
From whom did Israel seize control of Gaza in 1967?
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: we've had to ask you about this before, and not only about this topic.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38583206 (Dec 2023)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37648667 (Sept 2023)
Eventually we have no choice but to ban accounts that keep breaking HN's rules like this and ignore our requests to stop. I don't want to ban you, so if you would please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, that would be good. You broke a great many of them here, including:
"Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
I cannot find other examples of snark or personal attacks in this thread.
... according to Hamas.