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Comment by diggan | Hacker News Reader

I love the ideas behind what they do, but it'll take a long time before I trust any of those companies again. Back in 2018 I made a reservation for a Powerwall, and after waiting a couple of months and not hearing anything back, I've written a request to have the reservation fee (500EUR) returned to me, once every 6 months or so, without hearing back from a single person ever, even after writing multiple different email addresses.

That they can't agree on the pricing for a dish model doesn't surprise me a bit, they seem so disorganized even in their public marketing.

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After 28 months I still can not get my second Starlink dish and account activated. You can't find an address, phone number or email to contact the company. They do offer a chat function to a helpdesk (which is not the Starlink/SpaceX company) but of course these people can't do anything for you, certainly not activate your account!

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the worst. My other account was working for two months but then Starlink changed the payment form GUI and suddenly they no longer accepted my European bank accounts or Apple Pay or iDeal payment systems anymore, only credit card numbers. European people rarely have credit cards and certainly can't suddenly aquire one while roaming. And of course it would only work if you had a working roaming internet... wait a minute....

When I eventually had opened a new bank account with a credit card at great cost and expense, Starlink of course did not accept it. No recourse, no contact, no payments, nada.

Anyone want to buy two revision 3 Starlink dishes, as-is, where-is, never been used? [1].

[1] From an Australian personals ad: "Rain gauge for sale, as-is-where-is, never been used".

A joke told by Bush Tucker Man Les Hiddens while traveling in the Australian outback desert.

> European people rarely have credit cards

What? Almost everyone has a debit card and credit cards are very normal. I found some stats:

https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit...

50-60% is not rare. And presumably they didn't specifically require credit cards rather than debit cards, which are even more common.

Your link is the worldwide view. Just the European one [1] shows that only 11 out of 38 countries have an adoption of CCs >50%, 16/38 are at >40%.

Additionally, just because we have credit cards doesn't mean we use them in daily life. SEPA based payments work out far better.

[1] https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/rankings/people_with_credit...

>just because we have credit cards doesn't mean we use them

I concur, using credit cards is rather dangerous, especially online and in app forms for both buyer and seller alike [6].

>SEPA based payments work out far better

Indeed, but since recently (2018?) European banks couldn't confiscate your money on a whim, like the US credit card companies did for decades. Now European banks do too, just like PayPal [4].

Enshittfication was first coined by Cory Doctorrow [3] here [2] and it applies everywhere now [1].

[1] https://www.ft.com/content/6fb1602d-a08b-4a8c-bac0-047b7d64a...

[2] https://doctorow.medium.com/social-quitting-1ce85b67b456

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification

[4] https://emerchantauthority.com/blog/what-to-do-if-your-paypa....

[5] https://hn.algolia.com/?q=freeze+bank

[6] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

> I concur, using credit cards is rather dangerous

Your link is about chargeback. I'm pretty much exclusively using credit cards for daily payment and I can't even remember the last time I got any problems. I never pay interest either.

I get that you don't like or trust credit card, and it isn't popular in Europe, but don't be generalizing. Even in Europe my credit cards work well, except for the unpopularity of Amex.

>I get that you don't like or trust credit card

I do not get why people insist on defending the credit card companies and their ungoing enshittification and changing rules and laws[1]. I would prefer you refuting my central argument[2].

Credit card laws and rules have many more problems than just chargebacks. For two decades online payment webpages stole credit card numbers and stole money from people. I could list many more documented cases.

Elsewhere someone argues that debit cards are not credit cards. I agree. Of course Starlink forms reject debit cards too.

[1] https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/when-company-declines-your...

[2] https://paulgraham.com/disagree.html

> For two decades online payment webpages stole credit card numbers and stole money from people. I could list many more documented cases.

In this case, it's better than debit cards as you are not out of money until the bank reverts the fraudulent charge.

Now with 3DS this is way better, but I am way wearier of using my debit card number online (so I generate temporary cards) compared to credit - if they steal the card number, there is no problem.

That's for credit cards, debit cards penetration is much higher, my guess from working in a big fintech previously is that around 85-90% of people with a bank account in the EU have at least a debit card.

However, debit cards are not credit cards or compatible with credit cards, so I'm not sure what the relevance of your point is.

Sure on paper they are different things and they both involve different parties but in practice both are accepted everywhere. I never had a credit card but I have been using debit cards for decades and only twice an actual credit card was required: for booking a hotel abroad and for renting a car abroad.

For physical payment, sure. Lots of websites still only accept Visa/Mastercard.

I've been online in various ways since 2000s sometime, and have never stumbled upon a website/service/shop that doesn't accept my debit cards (which are Visa and Mastercard).

Are European debit cards maybe somehow different than US ones, and the experience differs between the two?

Yes, European debit cards often don’t use Visa or Mastercard. That’s changing though.

I didn't even know there was such a thing as a Visa debit card. I have never seen a Visa/Mastercard debit card in my life. My debit card supports SEPA and Giropay. Which... many websites don't. (I remember when Steam got Giropay support one day, that was a pleasant surprise.)

> I didn't even know there was such a thing as a Visa debit card

Sure does! Just signed up with BBVA some months ago and got a Visa debit card from them called "Aqua". https://www.bbva.es/en/personas/productos/tarjetas/tarjeta-d...

It's less common in Germany but, for example, Deutsche Bank do offer a Visa debit card. Sparkasse offers Maestro and Mastercard debit cards, etc.

In 99% of the places I can use my credit card I can also use my debit card, online or offline (well, except in Germany with their EC cards and stuff) that's the relevance of my point...

They point is that they probably also accepted debit cards, not just credit cards.

The only places I've found that only accept credit cards are hotels.

> SEPA based payments work out far better.

For many things they do, but I'd never order from an new/semi-reputable company online via SEPA credit transfer, and for analogous reasons a company would never accept SEPA direct debit from unknown customers.

If you have a credit card but don't want to use it for an uncertain online pre-order of a new product, what do you use it for?

> If you have a credit card but don't want to use it for an uncertain online pre-order of a new product, what do you use it for?

I have credit and debit cards. Basically no point in using the credit card, so I only use it for emergencies when nothing else works, which has been exactly once in my life so far, and that was in Mexico. In Spain (home) / around Europe I've never had an issue with my debit card, so it's what I keep using everywhere.

Sure, debit cards offer essentially the same protections (a defined dispute process, limited fraud liability etc.) in most countries and schemes.

What I meant was: Why use SEPA credit transfer (or more generally any other payment method without a dispute process) if you don't trust the merchant?

Credit cards are a useful backstop to have if for some reason you don't have access to your main current account / have a large bill to pay and have money in savings. 99% of the time when I use my credit card, it's to rent a car in the USA.

Are you thinking credit cards vs. debit cards, or cards vs. bank transfers? I agree that the former are largely equivalent modulo liquidity concerns, but for the latter, cards and push-based bank account payments (at least in SEPA) have significantly different rights and liabilities.

You can't activate? It's preactivated.

You also have a local Telco regulator and a consumer rights regulator too

> It's preactivated.

Do you have proof of that? I have proof they have never been preactivated. I'd like to learn if it's different elsewhere or elsewhen.

I have needed to activate and re-activate more than a 100 starlinks to date and it never was easy.

I’m confused. Upthread [1] you said you were trying to activate your second Starlink dish but now you claim to have activated more than 100 Starlinks ?

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39547910

In these comments there is a distinction between between activating the private personal Starlink accounts of user morphle and activating the Starlink accounts of other people by the same person on behalf of a rural internet coöperative in other countries.

We also helped rural Spain, rural Ukraine and on other continents and islands with setting up optical mesh and satellite internet, most of which had Starlink links as backup.

If you buy the product direct, you get Internet out of the box.

The idea of activation only makes sense for transfers and buying at retail.

You could try the EU small claims court: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...

It's not unusual to price products and services differently in different countries.

Flights from NYC to LDN might have different prices for example.

Taxes, business model, demand etc

Some countries don't get the Pixel discounts available in the US. Black Friday isn't everywhere.. Same with availability of Apple Care

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