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Comment by tw04 | Hacker News Reader

Much like the anti-vax movement, the average American seems in complete denial of how things really were a hundred years ago. Prior to unions, work looked completely different - EVERYONE has benefitted from the change unions brought about.

It's easy to tell yourself that sort of thing would never happen in a country like this when you weren't a direct witness to people (including children) literally being worked to death in a factory.

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> Prior to unions, work looked completely different

Average working hours were dropping for decades before Labor Unions became popular in the 1930s driven by the productivity gains referenced elsewhere in the thread. The trend continued unabated other than an increase during WWII even after Union membership peaked in 1980 and dropped for 30 years. It doesn’t seem that Labor Unions were the cause of this improvement trend.

1. https://ourworldindata.org/working-hours

>Average working hours were dropping for decades before Labor Unions became popular in the 1930s driven by the productivity gains referenced elsewhere in the thread. The trend continued unabated other than an increase during WWII even after Union membership peaked in 1980 and dropped for 30 years. It doesn’t seem that Labor Unions were the cause of this improvement trend.

Huh? The first labor union in the US was created in 1768. Unions were WELL established in the US in the 1930s. Did you think corporate owners were willingly giving back the time gained through productivity to workers? You need only look to China where they've had even greater productivity gains over the last 20 years and people are still literally living at their place of work and clocking in 12+ hour days every day of the week.

https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0113/the-history...

That seems to be a US centric view (and the US is different when it comes to unions from continental Europe, for example).

Yeah, I'm glad The Jungle was required reading in my high school history class.

During the industrial revolution yes, but if you go back further in time we still have it relatively bad

Those of us who survive childbirth and childhood probably do work longer hours than some of our ancestors.

I refuse to agree that it is "relatively bad" because I am happy that I live in a medically advanced civilisation with low childhood mortality and high life expectancies.

I guess if you only look at the upsides it's not such a bad place.

Likewise, I guess if you only look at the downsides it's not such a great place.

idk, the medically advanced civilization means my parents are paying 5k a month for my grandma's retirement house, essentially draining all their savings. Is this progress or were multi generation house better ? What's sure is that my parent's 90sqm house they're paying for the last 20 years and will pay for the next 15 years isn't big enough for that

My grandparents afforded 4 kids on a single paycheck, I can barely sustain myself and my gf while having a job in one of the best paying sector. They retired at 60, while working 35 hours per week, at that rate I won't legally be able to retire before 70+ and I'm working 42 hours per week

I could go on and on and on

How big was their house? 3 of my 4 grandparents grew up in multi-generational houses, all of their parents were very working class, and yes they "afforded" raising kids and housing their elderly. Their houses were not bigger than 100 sqm though. All shared rooms, and there was typically 1 bathroom for the entire household. Clothes were hand me downs and meals were only what they could afford, so the meat in their diet was mostly weird low quality stuff. They shared bath water! The lifestyle described is 100% still attainable today. It is your parent's choice not to have grandparents in the house - in line with societal standards today, but certainly not impossible.

In the tech bubble maybe, but in the real world certainly not. In the golden age you had that as a fancy factory worker, now you have that if you're well paid in a well paid industry

Real wages completely flattened since the 70s, and even declined in some western countries, while working hours and retirement age both increased. No one in 2024 supports a family and buys a new home/car on a factory salary, I can't even afford any of that while being in the top 20% earners in Germany, given the average cost per sqm and the current mortgage settings, I could afford a 50sqm house with a 30 years mortgage...

// can't even afford any of that while being in the top 20% earners in Germany

I ask this as a sincere question - according to Google, 50% of germans live in a home they own, and obviously some Germans are having kids (although the birth rate is horrendous)

Who are the people that are buying home and having kids? Are these activities limited to the 1%?

Couples with high income, inheritance, people who live on credit and debt, &c.

Not many can afford a new house with a single income, let alone to support a family with kids, maybe not 1% earners but definitely around 10%. A friend of mine has kids, they spend 60% of their household income on the flat they rent (2 salaries, both a good 20% above average for the city), that's before the car, heating, electricity, kids spendings, food, &c. and they're already one hour away from the city center by train

There isn't much up for debate I'm afraid:

https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/ifomkf25BuW...

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?id=QDEN628BI...

https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/416207/average-annual-wag...

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Carlo-Jaeger/publicatio...

https://www.move.org/app/uploads/2020/04/Home-price-changes-...

Indeed. I would also add the climate-change cult to the list. They forget how bad things were just 100 years ago.

We are in the mess we are in to a large degree because of the historical emissions.

There is much less pollution now, life expectancy has never been higher, deaths from natural disasters have never been lower, etc, etc.

Only a pathological pessimist would describe today’s world a mess compared to what it was 100 years ago.

> Only a pathological pessimist would describe today’s world a mess compared to what it was 100 years ago.

The problem is the future outlook, not the status quo. Climate change effects on the Northern Hemisphere (i.e. continental USA, most of Europe) haven't really become visible yet, at least not for up until the last 5-ish years that have all blown past records for extreme adversary weather events.

In addition to that comes the migration issue that will be caused by climate change. Our societies are already struggling keeping up with people fleeing from war and poverty in the South - give Africa 10-20 more years of climate change and droughts, and then the situation will be dire. Alone up to 2050 (so, in the next 26 years), predictions go for 86 million people having to flee from Africa [1] - and half of Europe fell to the far right with barely 5 million refugees from Syria, Afghanistan and other wars. We're nowhere near prepared to deal with the future.

[1] https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1263402/umfra...

If we really do care, we cannot have people living in Northern Europe, America and Canada. It is criminal to insist to live under conditions humans cannot survive without heating.

I suggest mass migration to Africa.

The problem is not heating or cooling for humans, we have technology for that (and solar power to provide power for it).

The problem is growing the crops to feed these people, which is getting harder and harder every year due to the combination of Western donations out-competing local farms and especially the rise of desertification - in 2012, it was estimated that two thirds of the land area of the entirety of Africa that's still viable for farming would be gone by 2030 [1].

[1] https://www.un.org/africarenewal/web-features/desertificatio...

> EVERYONE has benefitted from the change unions brought about

The unions brought us the congés payés in France in 1936. Think about the guilt. While the Germans where manufacturing bombs day and night in Germany, we were on the frigging beach.

Thank you, unions, we got invaded because of your irresponsibility. Also half of France had congés payés in 1935. Unions only brought the to sectors who couldn’t afford it.

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