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I have nothing to do with that conflict but I don't like how confident some people are that they're on the side of the Good, thus that they could do whatever to their opponents. (Cf Kasparov who wanted to nuke Russia at the beginning of the war)
It's very easy to look at what's happening from afar and call the term "orc" dehumanizing, and yes I share the opinion that being too confident in being on the good side is wrong, but we must also not fall into moral relativism were we see a horde of barbarians blackmailing the world with nuclear weapons and we are worried about using the term orc.
Humans are born with equal rights (at least in some countries) but aren't equal in capacity, character, judgment, and so on.
This is the most insulting statement on humanity and democracy I have read recently. I don’t really think you have meant it the way you have written it. Let’s unpack some parts of the statement.
> Humans are born with equal rights
This part sanitizes the fact that some are born in poor some in rich families. The rights may be in theory equal but only the one with the wealth and knowledge on political environment will be able to use them.
> [Humans] aren't [born] equal in capacity, character, judgment, and so on.
I can only read this part sensing some rasism and elitism. This neglects a dramatic impact on the environment where the person is born and expectations from them if they want to fit in.
To conclude, Russians are not orcs because they are born that way, but instead because they have been raised in an orc fertilising envirtonment.
>but instead because they have been raised in an orc fertilising envirtonment
I mean, after centuries of repression, gulags, etc. I'm sure either the culture or the society could have been affected? Let's drop the orc term and substitute it with "wish Ukrainian genocide".
To conclude, Russians are not "wishers of Ukrainian genocide" because they are born that way, but instead because they have been raised in a "wishers of Ukrainian genocide" fertilising envirtonment.
Now that I've sanitized the sentence, could you point out why I should care about how russians have come to be this way rather than caring about stopping them to avoid the destruction of Ukraine?
> Now that I've sanitized the sentence, could you point out why I should care about how russians have come to be this way rather than caring about stopping them to avoid the destruction of Ukraine?
The distinction is necessary because the war does not only occur on the battlefield, but there is a significant portion on propoganda. The propaganda reaches best thoose who are not being integrated and with very open immigration policy there now are many within the Europe. With stratification of wealth there are many poor who don’t feel that they belong. Imagine telling them that they are born inferior.
Geopolitics is ugly and the world is run by psychopaths. You're siding with one side, and asking to indoctrinate our children to hate the other, just like you've probably been your entire life.
We're always at war with the east. Endless proxy wars and more division is not the solution. We like to believe we're on the good side in the west but I don't, we brought this war on Ukraine with empty promises and now that shit hit the fan we let them fend on their own, and taking the opportunity to test some weapons.
I like to hold my side to a higher standard than the "enemy".
>We like to believe we're on the good side in the west but I don't
If you believe russia is on the good side you need to be checked in, but I'm sure you live in a place that wouldn't be impacted by the russkiy mir spilling over and going on some more. Allow me the arrogance to suggest a good intro material to understand why your comment is completely wrong: Timothy Snyder: The Making of Modern Ukraine.
>I like to hold my side to a higher standard than the "enemy".
Same, I can't believe some people would shrug off the kind of atrocities russians brought to Ukraine (again, let's ignore past history). It looks like most russians are even supporting it. The fact is that there are two types of Europeans: the ones who didn't experience russians subjugating their country and the ones who would rather die fighting.
> If you believe russia is on the good side you need to be checked in
I don't believe one side is the good side, like I mentioned the world is run by psychopaths and I refuse to pick a side. That's the entire problem today, everyone picks a side and sees the opposition as enemies or as the GP said "orcs". The world is more complicated than that.
> Ukrainians have a right to decide if they want to be part of the russkiy mir or if they want to be independent
They did, in an election, which started the Euromaidan and everything went to shit. Tymoshenko was against the deal for the Russian Crimea fleet long before that and she instigated her followers to take to the streets. This is called democracy from "our" side, coup if it's the opponent. I'm 100% sure the US would annex their bases in a similar situation.
Telling that you think the choice is Russia or independence. It's a choice between east and west, the situation is about the fleet in Crimea. Why do you think Erdogan can piss in all directions at once? The Bosporus.
I'm not saying anything going on in the world is okay but you're fooling yourself if you don't think we have a part in this. We want the east poor and in chaos, we were fine with Saddam killing the kurds, but leave the petrodollar? Oh no you don't!
It's easier to call what I say propaganda or misinfirmation, but they're facts. Read up on everything from sources you trust and you should come to the same conclusions. Nothing I say is even far fetched, the US is the self-appointed world police and this has been going on for decades, centuries if you think of the west. Some people just have to run the world and don't want to share.
This doesn't matter, let's just discuss facts.
>I don't believe one side is the good side
I believe that not all sides are created equal. I'd rather have my family be captured by NATO forces than russian ones, what about you? I think the term "orc" is even too kind when it comes to people that come to rape and pillage, with no distinction for age.
You are muddying the water with all these implications about Euromaidan, CIA coups, fleet in Crimea, Saddam leaving the petrodollar, the US annexing bases etc. Let's state the cold facts: russia invaded Ukraine with a genocidal intent that has been shown with actions AND statements.
Let's say the choice is between East and West rather than about independence. It looks like Ukrainians chose West, that doesn't give russia any right or justification to invade. There is nothing you can say that justifies what russians have done to Ukrainians (again).
Russia wants to roleplay as an empire but it has literally nothing to offer to its would-be subjects. Are you really surprised about people preferring freedom of expression, free markets, a possible EU integration and the security of NATO rather than being part of the russkiy mir? All ex-subjects of russia would rather die than be at their mercy again.
I rather get killed in the forest than waterboarded in Guantanamo without trial for decades. But I would of course not have to choose at all.
> Let's state the cold facts: russia invaded Ukraine with a genocidal intent that has been shown with actions AND statements
Speaking of facts, how about you start providing your source for this hyperbole claim, and why mine about Crimea is muddying the waters. I also didn't mention the CIA, don't put words in my mouth it's dishonest.
> It looks like Ukrainians chose West, that doesn't give russia any right or justification to invade
No that's my point, they didn't. The pro-russian candidate won the election, and the pro-european side wouldn't have that so they burned buildings and started a civil war. Read up on Tymoshenko and everything leading up to Euromaidan and you'll find what I claim. Use any source you want, it's mainstream.
> Russia wants to roleplay as an empire
Ironic claim given the NATO expansion and the US activities in the middle-east. Russia has what, 3 allies left on it's borders and they're all in chaos from time to time with the western media cheering on the coups, last was Lukasjenko in Belarus. Why is that?
> Are you really surprised about people preferring freedom of expression, free markets, a possible EU integration and the security of NATO
This is the illusion we're being sold, but is speech really free even in the west? Can you imagine we're being told just as many lies as the other side of the world? There are some narratives that aren't allowed and groupthink and cancel culture is used as a weapon in the west. In my country people were ordering too much from China so we created a special toll for cheap Chinese products. Free market my ass.
We need to hold our leaders and ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies, but we don't. Especially not when resorting to name calling like we're school bullies. All our leaders have to say is "yeah one guest at that wedding in the desert was a terrorist" and we're fine with entire families being wiped out with the push of a button. It's all in the name of good right?
If we were actually good we would mourn anyone we had to kill, not agitate against the "orcs" like they're animals. It's disgusting. Meanwhile I'm being downvoted for stating what should be obvious to anyone paying attention.
It is you sending out a volley non falsifiable claims as an argument that justifies the invasion. You might as well tell me that PG is behind everything, I can't disprove that.
>Ironic claim given the NATO expansion
What aboutism.
>This is the illusion we're being sold
Yeah alright. Please don't bring groupthink and cancel culture into the discussion, it's really not pertinent, you are 1 minute away from going "the west has fallen". And I agree with you that there are many things to improve, to say the least. Still, even if the Western free speech, free market, etc. is all an illusion, Ukrainians have the right to pick that rather than the russkiy mir.
>We need to hold our leaders and ourselves to a higher standard than our enemies
I agree. Raping, torturing, pillaging, genociding, should be unthinkable. Doing that is giving up on being human, imo.
>and we're fine with entire families being wiped out with the push of a button
Who's we?
>not agitate against the "orcs" like they're animals
Who's agitating? It seems to me that Western media has been even too kind to russians. The most terrible deeds that by sheer luck emerge and become public are quickly forgotten.
>anyone paying attention
I guess the only one paying attention is you, not sure what you are paying attention to tho, since you seem unable to state something even just remotely close to the fact that russians are doing something wrong. I wish you and your family will never have to live under the threat of the russkiy mir, but, usually, textbook useful idiots and demoralized people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw&ab_channel=Nicho...) tend to be far away from any danger in this day and age, with somebody else paying the price.
What is non falsifiable? You can even find it on Wikipedia, that's how mainstream it all is. Who is PG?
> What aboutism.
Irrelevant, the discussion is about vilifying and dehumanizing the opposition. That's how we get places like Guantanamo and the pictures of Iraqi prisoners US soldiers took for shits and giggles. So what we do as a comparison is on topic. But if whataboutism is your best response so be it.
> Ukrainians have the right to pick that rather than the russkiy mir.
Still stuck here. What did they choose in the elections? Democracy picked Russia, coup gave them West. Read it twice so we don't need to go over it again. Wasted bytes.
> I agree. Raping, torturing, pillaging, genociding, should be unthinkable. Doing that is giving up on being human, imo.
And we don't? The US as we speak has warships protecting Israel in their genocide ("no water, no food, no electricity, nothing" - Israeli Defense Minister). Israel can compete in sports and Eurovision. Wars are a fucking popularity contest to us and it's absolutely disgusting.
You'll probably claim the Azov battalion were fine human beings towards ethnic Russians between 2014-2022?
> Who's we? Who's agitating? It seems to me that Western media has been even too kind to russians.
The elite in the west. Western media. Latest example is Tuckers interview, even before it aired they started questioning why Putin should get the chance to speak. Why not? What are we so afraid of?
Trump wins, and it must be Russia and Assange colluding. No no the americans can't possibly want this. Everytime this embarrassing blaming Russia for everything. Textbook propaganda.
> I guess the only one paying attention is you, not sure what you are paying attention to tho, since you seem unable to state something even just remotely close to the fact that russians are doing something wrong.
This is where you're deliberately misunderstanding me, even if I've mentioned in every comment that I don't pick sides. I just paint the picture that we're not as good as we try to claim and that we should get off our high horses. But I do see how we got in this situation, and it won't be the last one. For every atrocity you mention I can find comparisons from the West. I'm a pacifist and want peace and cooperation, not constant conflict.
Plenty of people are paying attention, but the majority aren't they just change their profile picture to the latest conflict du jour and repeat their politicians mantras. I think peace in the world is possible, but those with the power to achieve it don't want that. An equal world doesn't benefit them. And it's not their kids dying in Ukraine.
I would have much more respect for NATO if we actually went boots on the ground and helped sort out the mess we were part of creating. The poor Ukrainians were fooled, they took a big risk and when shit hit the fan they're on their own because we want to keep the illusion that we're not involved.
After bringing up points like Euromaidan being a coup, Saddam and the petrodollar, you are now bringing in shit like Trump, "elites in the west", and finally the Azov battalion and the Ukrainians doing violence on ethnic Russians, you are bringing out the points of "we must invade because the Ukrainians are bombarding Donetsk children and they are nazis" of russian propaganda. An attentive reader would have noticed that you said "ethnic russians", de facto stating that there is a chunk of Ukraine that is actually russia and must be saved.
I'll let you in on something: the fact that I feel so strongly about these fucking savages that invaded Ukraine and useful idiots gushing down russian propaganda is because I am a Westerner that lives in Ukraine and I've been living here since before the war. Part of the acquired family I have from my partner is from Donetsk and the fact that you bring up Azov and this ethnic russian thing is the cherry on top, the perfect piece of bullshit that me, actually living in Ukraine, is perfectly equipped to call you on about.
>For every atrocity you mention I can find comparisons from the West
No, you cannot. Russia, from its imperial times, has brought upon the world the worst depraved and terrible crimes, nazi concentration camps are a walk in the park compared to the joys of the russian empire and later the soviet union. And still, we're talking about 2024, these things are being done right now.
>I'm a pacifist and want peace and cooperation, not constant conflict.
You aren't, you are a useful idiot who paves the way for the demoralization of your nation and its later destruction
What disgusts me the most is that you seem to be unable to cede on the point that what russia did is wrong. You even mention that brutalities are okay because apparently, somebody else did them in the past. Russia invading is okay because trump/saddam/elites in the west/euromaidan/crimean fleet/azov battalion/whatever other shit you gobbled up on the internet. But hey, you are a pacifist.
You have a very condescending and unnecessary tone, but make very few points yourself. Why is that?
You claim since you are in Ukraine (I call bullshit but whatever) you have better sources than me, I doubt it. Any source that would put Kiev in a bad light is regarded as traitors and jailed. Like that blogger was recently for example. So honest reporting from within Ukraine forget about it. Even western media has stopped trying to paint the beautiful picture Zelensky is. How many more Ukrainians are you willing to let die for NATOs cause? Are you fighting? To the last Ukrainian like Zelensky wants? For who? Why?
Your comment here doesn't make me unsee the civilians being killed between 2014-2022. This is not demoralization, you should've realized the west are vile scum from the get go and should've never trusted us. We use our puppets as long as they're useful, then we stage a coup or oust them ourselves. I've said I've wanted NATO to enter openly even after Euromaidan, before 2022. Because even then it was obvious what this was all about.
> What disgusts me the most is that you seem to be unable to cede on the point that what russia did is wrong. You even mention that brutalities are okay because apparently, somebody else did them in the past. Russia invading is okay because trump/saddam/elites in the west/euromaidan/crimean fleet/azov battalion/whatever other shit you gobbled up on the internet. But hey, you are a pacifist.
Why are you lying about my claims? Never said anything even close to that. Is there a problem with your reading comprehension? A language barrier? How can I be clearer than I've been in the last 15 comments? It's getting exhausting to repeat myself.
This could've been stopped anytime in the last 20-30 years. Ukraine wasn't even a country back when this all started. You're reacting now that Russia finally bites back, but all the pushing for half a century you ignore. That doesn't mean it's right, but it's expected and logical. We played and keep playing a part. How come only our side is allowed to be afraid, to expand and play power games? A leads to B leads to C. Simple logic.
Is there some kind of natural law that says we always have to be at war with the east? How about we take the first step and try something else for once?
Your points are all non-falsifiable and are the checklist of russians propaganda (here I'm ignoring the ramblings about trump, saddam, etc.). You mentioned NATO expansion, Azov, "ethnic russians" being threathened, CIA coup, gonzalo lira, and so forth. You forgot to mention biolabs. I use a condescending tone because I eventually realized this was a lost cause and I'm just writing an answer for whoever lost soul ends up reading this thread.
Here's proof I'm in Ukraine, it's some random shit and a corner of my residential card. I'd rather not take a picture of my passport because it would show my nationality, which is Western but which I'd rather not disclose unnecessarily. https://imgur.com/a/dGR5rro
>you should've realized the west are vile scum
>Ukraine wasn't even a country back when this all started
>Russia finally bites back, but all the pushing for half a century you ignore
Doesn't get more pacifist than that. This is a worthless discussion, let's just stop. I've taken a look at your comment history and you seem very deeply involved into american polarizing politics like heads having to roll because of COVID lockdowns, I quote, "Heads have to roll". I'm convinced that what happened with COVID was stupid and government people should be more accountable for the fuck up, but looking at your post history you are a prime example of what Yuri Bezmenov was talking about. I bet you are this close to writing that the USA needs a revolution.
It's easy to call me a liar, Putin apologist, and everything else, but difficult to dispute. Notice I haven't called you a single thing, I use my logic and reasoning.
Since you ask, I think the entire world needs a revolution, but a real one, not a color revolution funded by billionaires with agendas. Very few people are living like gods and they do it on the backs of the rest of the world. I'm allowed to be angry about that. Don't miss the real problem by focusing on the problems they want you to focus on. The elite in Russia/China etc are of course also in this.
It's too bad cause it looks like Putin isn't going to be around to help purify the world.
> Don't miss the real problem by focusing on the problems they want you to focus on. The elite in Russia/China etc are of course also in this.
Do you see Putin as a part of the Russian elite? If so, why would you think I side with Putin? Do you have any opinion regarding the points I try to make?
Why is sensible and sane discussion so impossible in 2024? Why do we have to build strawmans and sink to these levels just to make a useless point? What happened to people? Am I even discussing with people? It feels more like bots ignoring all my points, crawling the internet, finding keywords and running sentiment analysis just to derail any valid discussions. Depressing, I'm here for mental stimulation. Don't be so fucking lazy.
It’s the Russian soldiers in Ukraine that I’ve seen referred to as “orcs”, due to the fact they’re a savage invading army that leaves only destruction and indiscriminate death in their wake. Look at what they did in the beginning of the invasion when they thought they would quickly win and their crimes would never be uncovered.
No, the "worst dehumanizing thing to do" is to gratuitously start a war that has probably killed or maimed 500,000 people so far and shows no signs of stopping.
To suggest that that this level of reactive name-calling (which in any case is used to apply to the invading forces; not to "Russians" in general) is somehow bigger and more dehumanizing than the awful, perverse and entirely one-sided war itself - is really quite silly.
Meanwhile the invading forces have all kinds of slur words for Ukrainians in turn, as I'm sure you know. So the argument is doubly silly, in that regard.