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code51

Dear Google, please fix your names and versioning.

Gemini Pro, Gemini Ultra... but was 1.0?

now upgraded but again Gemini Pro? jumping from 1.0 to 1.5?

wait but not Gemini Pro 1.5... Gemini "1.5" Pro

What actually happened between 1.0 and 1.5?

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It's not that difficult.

Their LLM brand is now Gemini. Gemini comes in three different sizes, Nano/Pro/Ultra.

They recently released 1.0 versions of each, most recently (a few months after Nano and Pro) Ultra.

Today they are introducing version 1.5, starting with the Pro size. They say 1.5 Pro offers comparable performance to 1.0 Ultra, along with new abilities (token window size).

(I agree Small/Medium/Large would be better.)

> , starting with the Pro size

This is where it gets confusing IMO.

It's like if Apple announced macOS Blabahee, starting with Mini, not long after releasing Pro and Air touting benefits of Sonoma.

Also, just.. this is how TFA begins:

> Last week, we rolled out our most capable model, Gemini 1.0 Ultra, [...] Our teams continue pushing the frontiers of our latest models with safety at the core. They are making rapid progress. [...] 1.5 Pro achieves comparable quality to 1.0 Ultra

Last week! And now we have next generation. And the wow is that it's comparable to the best of the previous generation. Ok fine at a smaller size, but also that's all we get anyway. Oh and the most capable remains the last generation one. As long as it's the biggest one.

It's almost exactly like Apple, actually, with their M1 and M2 chips available in different sizes, launching at different times in different products.

It's really not that confusing. There are different sizes and different generations, coming out at different times. This pattern is practically as old as computing itself.

I can't even imagine what alternative naming scheme would be an improvement.

Don't go thinking I'm an Apple 'fanboy', I don't have any Apple devices at the moment, but I really can't imagine them launching a next gen product that isn't better than the best of the last gen.

I doubt they launched M2 MBAs while the MBP was running M1, for example. Or more directly, a low-mid spec M3 MBP while the top-spec M2 MBP (I assume that would out-benchmark it?) still for sale and no comparable M3 chip yet.

It's not having the matrix of size/power & generation that's confusing, it's the 'next generation' one initially launched not being the best. I think that's mainly it for me anyway.

> but I really can't imagine them launching a next gen product that isn't better than the best of the last gen.

But they have. The baseline M2 is significantly less powerful than the M1 Max.

What Google's doing is basically exactly like that. It happens all the time that the mid tier of the next generation isn't as good as the top tier of the previous generation. It might even be the norm.

More powerful isn't the same thing as better. Among other things, better means performance/battery life tradeoff.

Sure but did they release the baseline M2 first, before higher end M2s were available?

I don't understand what that has to do with anything.

There isn't a set order to things. Sometimes companies release a higher powered version first and then the budget version later, sometimes an entry-level version first and a pro version after. Sometimes both simultaneously. All of these are normal, and can even follow different orders generation to generation.

> Last week! And now we have next generation.

Google got caught completely flat footed by OpenAI. I'm going to cut them some slack that they want to show the world a bit of flex with their AI chops as soon as they have results.

Thank you, is more clear to me now. But I also read in some Google announcement about "Gemini Advanced", do you know what is that and the relation with the Nano/Pro/Ultra levels?

Gemini is also the brand name for the end-user web and phone chatbot apps, think ChatGPT (app) vs. GPT-# (model).

Gemini Advanced is the paid subscription service tier that at the moment gets you access to the Ultra model, similar to how a ChatGPT Plus subscription gets you access to GPT-4.

Honestly, they should have called this part Gemini Chat and Gemini Chat Plus, but of course ego won't let them follow the competitor's naming scheme.

Oh, I understand, thank you. To me with the "Gemini Advanced" they screwed the naming scheme.

With an already complex naming for regular consumers (Nano/Pro/Ultra each one with a 1.x), adding this Advanced thing it becomes and spaghetti.

I understand that for most people may be just a chat input and don't care, but if people will consider to pay, they will research a bit and is confusing.

What you described is difficult.

It’s really not. Substitute Gemini for iPhone. Apple releases an iPhone model in mini, standard, and pro lines. They announce iPhone model+1 but are releasing the pro version first. Still difficult?

> Apple releases an iPhone model in mini, standard, and pro lines.

not an iphone user but just looked at iphone 15. Don't see any mini version. I am guess 'standard' is called just 'iphone' ? Is pro same thing as plus ?

https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-iphone/iphone-15

> Still difficult?

yes your example made it even more confusing.

Now you’re being intentionally difficult. Do you want it to be cars? Last year $Automaker released $Sedan 2023 in basic, standard, and luxury trims. This year $Automaker announced $Sedan 2024 but so far have only announced the standard trim. If I had meant the iPhone 15 specifically I would’ve said iPhone 15. I think the 12 was the last mini? The point is product families are often released in generations (versions in the case of Gemini) and with different available specs (ultra/pro/nano etc) that may not all be released at the same time.

Apple discontinued mini phones two generations back, unfortunately.

I think it's the "iPhone +1 Mini is as fast as the old Standard" that confuses people here. This is obvious and expected but not how it's usually marketed I guess ...

So Google will be upgrading the version number of each model at the same time? Based on other comments here, that's not the case - some are 1.5 and some are 1?

Apple doesn't announce the iPhone 12 Mini and compare it to the iPhone 11 Pro.

Uhh, yes they do?

Did you watch the announcements for the M2 and M3 pros? They compared it to the previous generations all the time.

How? Three models Nano/Pro/Ultra currently at 1.0. New upgrades just increment the version number.

I’m sure they had a discussion that size-based identifiers might imply models are primarily differentiated on the amount of knowledge they have. From that standpoint I don’t agree S/M/L would have been better.

Gemini ultra 1.0 never went GA. So it is wierd that they'd release 1.5 when most can't even get their hands on 1.0 ultra.

Isn't the paid version on https://gemini.google.com Gemini 1.0 Ultra?

What's Advanced then, chat? Also, by that, 1.5 Ultra is then still to come and it'll show even bigger guns.

Yes, my understanding is also there will be a 1.5 Ultra.

It's however nowhere explicitly said that I could find. The Technical Report PDF also avoids even hinting at it.

Advanced is a price/service tier for the end-user frontend. At the moment it gets you 1.0 Ultra access vs. 1.0 Pro for the free version. Similar to how ChatGPT Plus gives you 4 instead of 3.5.

I agree this part is messy. Does everyone who had Pro already get 1.5 Pro? If 1.5 Pro is better than 1.0 Ultra, why pay for Advanced? Is 1.5 Pro behind the Advanced paywall? etc.

Ok, so from what I've gathered then from all of the comments so far, primary confusion is that both Chat service and llm models are named the same.

There are three models: nano/pro/ultra and all are at v1.0

There are two tiers of chat service: basic and pro

There is AIStudio from google through which you can interact with / use directly gemini llms.

Chat service Gemini basic (free) uses Gemini Pro 1.0 llm.

Chat service Gemini advanced uses Gemini Ultra 1.0 llm.

What was shown is ~~Ultra~~ Pro 1.5 LLM which is / will be available to select few for preview to be used via AIStudio.

That leaves a question, what's nano for, and is it only used via AIStudio/API?

Jesus, Google..

No, what they showed is Pro 1.5. Only via API and on a waitlist.

How this relates to the end-user chat service/price tiers is still unknown.

The best scenario would be that they just move Gemini free and Advanced tiers to Pro 1.5 and Ultra 1.5, I guess.

Yes, you are right. I meant Pro. Let's see then.

Nano is the on-device (Pixel phone) model.

They should remove the name Gemini Advanced and just stick to one name

Agreed.

Gemini Advanced seems to be the brand name for the higher price tier for the end-user frontend that gets you Ultra access, similar how ChatGPT Plus gets you ChatGPT 4.

I get it, but it does beg the question whether you will need Advanced now to get 1.5 Pro. Or does everyone get Pro, making it useless to pay for 1.0 Ultra?

I still don't think it's confusing, but that part is definitely messy.

So there's Nano 1.0, Pro 1.5, Ultra 1.0, but Pro 1.5 can only be accessed if you're a Vertex AI user (wtf is Vertex)?

That's very difficult.

It's a bit similar to how new OpenAI stuff is initially usually partner-only or waitlisted.

Vertex AI is their developer API platform.

I agree OpenAI is a bit better at launching for customers on ChatGPT alongside API.

Dear OpenAI please fix your names and versioning. Why do you have GPT-3 and GPT-3.5? What happened between 3 and 3.5? And why isn't GPT-3 a single model? Why are there variations like GPT-3-6.7B and GPT-3-175b? And why is there now a turbo version? How does turbo compared to 4? And what's the relationship between the end-user product ChatGPT and a specific GPT model?

You see this problem isn't unique to Google.

Their inability to name things sensibly has been called out for years and it doesn't look like they care?

I'm not sure what the deal is, it has to be a marketing hinderance as every major tech company is trying to claw their way up the AI service mountain. Seems like the first step would be cogent naming.

It would have been better as Gemini Lite, Gemini, Gemini Pro, and then v1, v1.5 for model bumps.

Ultra vs pro vs nano with Ultra unlocked by buying Gemini Advanced is confusing.

I'm also not sure why they make base Gemini available after you have Advanced, because presumably there's no reason to use a worse model.

They can't decide on a single name for a chat application so I think expecting them to come up with a sensible naming suggestion is optimistic at best.

Furthermore, is a minor version upgrade two months later really "next generation"?

Well if it's from 1 to 1.5 then it's really 5 minor version upgrades at once. And since 1.5 is halfway to 2 and you round up, it's next generation!

Maybe it's not a "next generation" model, but rather their next model for text generation ;)

I mean i don't see any other models watching and answering questions about a 44 minute video lol

I understod the transition as following.

Google Bard to Google Gemini is what they call Gemini 1.0.

Gemini consists of Gemini Nano, Gemini Pro, & Gemini Ultra.

Gemini Nano is for embedded and portable devices I guess? The free version of Gemini (gemini.google.com) is Gemini Pro. The paid version, called Gemini Advanced is using Gemini Ultra.

What we're reading now is about Gemini Pro version 1.0 switching to version 1.5 as of today.

That just made my head spin even more. (Like, I get it, but it's just a very tortuous naming system.) The free version is called Pro, Gemini Advanced is actually Gemini Ultra, the less powerful version upgraded to the more powerful model but the more powerful version is on the less powerful model.

People make fun of OpenAI for not using product names and just calling it "GPT" but at least it's straightforward: 2, 3, 3.5, 4. (On the API side it's a little more complicated since there's "turbo" and "instruct" but that isn't exposed to users, and turbo is basically the default.)

But you don't pay for GPT-4, you pay for a product called ChatGPT Plus, which allows you to write 40 messages to GPT-4 within a three-hour time window, after which you need to switch to 3.5 in the menu.

It was probably not a wise choise to give the model itself and the product the same name: "Gemini Advanced is using Gemini Ultra". Also: "The free version ... is Gemini Pro" - is not what you usually see out there.

but if Vertex AI is using Gemini Ultra, then why makersuite (aisuite now? hmmm) showing only "Gemini 1.0 Pro 001" (001: a version inside a version)

and why have makersuite/aisuite in the first place, if Vertex AI is the center for all things AI? and why aitestkitchen?

I'm seeing only Gemini 1.0 Pro on Vertex AI. So even if I enabled Google Gemini Advanced (Ultra?), enabled Vertex AI API access, I have to first be blessed by Google to access advanced APIs.

It seems paying for their service doesn't mean anything to Google at this point. As a developer, you have to jump through hoops first.

I think this answers why you can't see Ultra.

"Gemini 1.0 Ultra, our most sophisticated and capable model for complex tasks, is now generally available on Vertex AI for customers via allowlist."

https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/ai-machine-learning/g...

This naming is terrible, if I understand correctly this is the release of Gemini 1.5 Pro, but not Gemini 1.5 Ultra right ?

Looks like the former PM of chat at google found a new job.

How is that hard to understand? Yes its gemini 1.5 pro, they haven't released ultra or nano, like this isn't rocket science they didnt introduce Gemini 1.5 ProLight or something, lol its the Pro size model's 1.5 version.

The name of the blog post is "Our next-generation model: Gemini 1.5", how am I supposed to infer from this that it is only the 1.5 pro and not ultra ?

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39385230

This just means we'll be getting a Nano 1.5 and Ultra 1.5

and if Pro 1.5 is this good holy shit what will Ultra be...

Nano/Pro/Ultra are the model sizes, 1.0 or 1.5 is the version

Maybe they should take a hint on Windows versions name scheme and call the next version Gemini Meh.

Are you talking about Xbox one?

No. Gemini Purple Plus Platinum Advanced Home Version 11.P17

You didn't know about Windows Meh? Not sure about the spelling.

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