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Comment by shon | Hacker News Reader

This great except that the author starts with “our kids love math” and goes on to say how they wanted to figure out a way for their kids to do math everyday because they love it.

My kid loves Roblox. Math not so much. She’ll gladly play Roblox every day with no assistance or structure from me. Math? That’s about as easy to form a habit with as running 5 miles. How do I get her to love math (or other good things) in the first place?

The hard part isn’t getting by kids to do things they love, it’s getting them to do things they DON’T love.

I was able to get her hooked on reading actual paper books but only when she messed up in school and lost access to devices for 9 days. Boredom took over and books were the answer. Now she loves them, thank god.

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> How do I get her to love math (or other good things) in the first place? The hard part isn’t getting by kids to do things they love, it’s getting them to do things they DON’T love.

My suggestion; Kids learn by mimicking and playing. Our Education System beats this out of us in favour of formalism/competition/goals/etc. So if you sit and "play" with her using objects/manipulations of objects (set theory/abstract algebra/formal systems), measurements (quantities/units/coordinate systems), walking across the room with even speed vs. sudden acceleration/de-acceleration (calculus) you can teach Abstractions/Mathematics/etc. This will build up their intuition and hook their interest. Then you can teach them the necessary "formal notation" using paper/pencil and textbooks. You always go from concrete to abstract with enthusiasm and a playful attitude i.e. no right/wrong answers but exploring ideas/concepts.

PS: You might find the videos of the famed educationalist Sir Ken Robinson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Robinson_(educationalist)) useful in this regard - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ken+robinson

Just to add, building intuition is the same thing as struggling to solve a problem. The process creates solution shaped holes in your brain, in which the formalism and abstract algebra fit naturally.

But it is important to actually give the formalism and abstract algebra at this point. Unless your child is an age defining genius, they will benefit from some handholding, and theres not much of that that can be done without having access to it yourself.

> building intuition is the same thing as struggling to solve a problem.

Not necessarily.

Intuition (borne out of Imagination) is for understanding the domain concepts even before there is a problem to solve.

This is the reason i am against the oft repeated advice "solve a lot of problems to learn Mathematics" which merely leads to mechanical "plug and chug problem-solving" with no real understanding. Instead one should spend a lot of time trying to grasp the concepts well, map them to the appropriate notations used and then study a few fully-worked out problems to grasp the "applications".

The point is that definitions and theorems are learned backwards. First you dig the hole and then you fill it.

Humans are built to explore and discover and be curious in general. The great tragedy of technology is that improperly configured smartphones, computers and videogames give the illusion of exploration while providing nothing of value in return to the user.

It's like someone shoveling a big empty hole for years and years

>improperly

On the contrary. They're all properly configured. It's just that, their goals are not the same as our mental health goals.

I used to be a deadbeat 30-something who got his reward of progression and a sense of achievement from winning online arguments and grinding ranks in online games. Just like our brains cannot tell the difference between a picture of a girl that doesn't exist and a girl that does and both evoke some feelings of attraction, or an image of a wild animal that couldn't possible exist and one who does and both evoke some feelings of fear, the same happens when we get upvotes on reddit or platinum rank in Call of Duty.

In healthy and balanced scenarios both are distractions in our free time. For people whose life situation is less than ideal those same tools exploit their need to be appreciated and rewarded, in return for profits from sales or/and advertisements.

And we're all pretending that these people just lack willpower, and if only they had willpower they could break away from the software whose parts are deliberately designed after consultation with psychologists specialized in behavioral addiction.

Go on then. How did you beat it?

They used to be a deadbeat 30-something. Now they're a deadbeat 40-something. Time eventually solves all problems.

I can't speak for them, but my own case was similar. For me it was a long process of making the bad habits harder and good habits easier. I deleted my League of Legends account (this improved my life by far the most of these changes) and blocked a bunch of sites on my browser. I started taking more walks, began getting up at a set time which I gradually shifted earlier and earlier, and started working more.

It sounds cliche, but it has worked exactly that way for me. A little more good habits, a little less bad habits, repeat x1000 and you're a whole new person in a whole new place.

For me: getting better at delayed gratification by exploiting habit-forming.

I stay mindful of what it is I want, and am certain I want, and create reminders for myself to prevent my auto-pilot from going off track.

We love the things that we are good at.

If you start with easy math problems (but not labelling them as "math problems", but as logic, smart puzzles) you can build up from there.

Consistency and frugality of options is important.

We love the things that we feel good at. Even if we are objectively better than most peers playing an instrument, if the teacher (parent) gives the impression that we are not good all motivation might dwindle.

On the other hand if the approach of the author gives a slight competitive edge, this might snowball for the reason you've given.

This may be just an insignificant anecdote, but as a gen-z person, what helped me as a kid was a sense of community. In my case specifically our parents bought us ipod touches and that sense of community was the early jailbreak community. It didn't get me into math but into computer science which got me into math.

But this could extend to many things, e.g. the kid who likes Minecraft may get into "logic puzzles" through red stone while the kid who likes Roblox may get into creating roblox games.

Then, they will get into math once they actually need math as something useful for their "logic based hobby" as I will call it. Of course it is very hard when a kid is just hit with theoretical math and there is no real association with something they are already interested in. But there are actually countless associations, now you just need to find them and bridge your kids interests with math through them.

And I'll give an anecdote from the other side. I loved math as a kid, as well as logic puzzles, Erector sets, Legos, computers, video games, the whole pre-engineering shebang. My birthday present when I turned 11 was a copy of one of those home design CAD suites. I coded simple websites (helped along by a neighbor who, unfortunately, moved away). I had good grades in advanced courses; seemed on track for some sort of career in some STEM-related field. But I was very much alone in my passion. I couldn't seem to get anyone around me interested in this stuff, nor could I find anyone to share that interest with. I remember once, when I was in middle school, programming a very basic Pokemon battle simulator on my TI-83+. There was a software engineer who went to our church, and I was so excited to show him and get feedback, but he just kind of blew me off.

Probably a few months later, I was watching The Screensavers (remember that?), and they mentioned that users on the TechTV forums were drawing free art requests. The guy who took mine mentioned that he was posting it to deviantArt. "What's that?" I thought. Long story short, I hold a BFA instead of a BS now.

Community takes most people from hobby to passion. It is very difficult, if not impossible, to go it alone.

> There was a software engineer who went to our church, and I was so excited to show him and get feedback, but he just kind of blew me off.

I'm sorry to hear that you had this experience. I'm sure your Pokemon battle simulator was cool!

This is the reason why I’m very restrictive with my kids access to any digital devices. Not because they are inherently bad, but because they take valuable time where they should be out playing in nature, practicing social interactions with other kids, learn to play music, or read books.

We have some time limits on games specifically but it really is mostly Roblox (an hour a day). What stops me from limiting this further is social interaction, ironically. A lot of the current elementary school class meets up there in lieu of a playground, and removing that would limit the kid's social life.

They like to run a voice chat in the background while they play, so it's not just a silent in-game chat interaction.

If removing this I don't know how we would replace the social aspect. Would probably need to find an in-person after-school program which would have its own problems.

> What stops me from limiting this further is social interaction, ironically. A lot of the current elementary school class meets up there in lieu of a playground, and removing that would limit the kid's social life.

This is such sad commentary on modern life. Why is this acceptable at all?

I follow this but part of this attitude has always struck me as slightly off. Parents and others deciding what is valuable versus what isn’t. Granted draining full days in Roblox for the average kid is likely a net loss, but I recall similar attitudes parents had for video games. There’s a fair number of people out there who played lots of video games as children and grew up to do great things because they were inspired by games. Guess I am saying it’s hard to know where inspiration can emerge from. I don’t think teaching our kids some skill is always about its benefits to them but the befits we have perceived from it, regardless of what it is and if the kid likes it. I recall having to go on lots of morning hunts as a kid because my dad enjoyed it and wanted me to enjoy it too, even though I did not.

And we decide that they aren't allowed to eat candy for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, because we know that if they do they will feel like crap, even though it might be immediately rewarding.

And while there are people who might have grown up to do great things after playing video games, or reading comic books or watching television, or whatever thing has horrified any given generation, I'm convinced that knowing to play an instrument, have the patience to read to a book or walk in nature, know how to approach a science paper, or dance, give much more chances to live a fulfilling life.

And if you have those things the day you become an adult, you can still choose to play video games with all your free time. But if you have spent your childhood and adolescence playing video games, it is really hard to get started with any of all those other things that life offers.

I want to think that kids today would be able to balance life and tech, because I was able to growing up in the nineties. In the same summer I would spend 8 weeks in the woods working camp staff, and dumping dozens of late nights into MMOs, and think I turned out alright. Surely there were many other factors, but those are the ones focused on here.

It was a very different internet and world though. The thought of giving a child access to YouTube terrifies me. Content is engineered extremely well to prey on children (and adults who are still children), what if they find and get tricked by this? Absolutely terrifies me.

Not allowing access is obviously wrong, they will just resent you and watch even more of it at school, a friends house, etc. So you have to allow access but teach them enough to not fall for it. It’s your parenting vs their extremely well rehearsed, metrics backed, full-time, for-profit, well disguised content, which can either be completely harmless or fuck them up for life.

So, I get it.

Maybe we shouldn't be forcing kids to do what they don't love in the first place. Well, I don't mean we shouldn't get them to understand basic math, but shove it down their throats? Why not just let them explore what they like?

Oh yeah, it's because we want them to get jobs. But trust me, if you make a child do a lot of something they don't love, they might get a job with it and then just quit because they hate it.

Too much of anything is poison, and a harsh upbringing is certainly counterproductive, but so is the opposite. Limiting yourself to doing only what you love goes against yours and you children self-realization and leaves the door open to marketing and fads.

I find that people who do this to their children regret it later, life is short and the time we have to help our children forge a good foundation is even shorter.

You can very well give them a balance between a carefree, happy childhood full of love, while at the same time forcing them to discover lots of things they don't like at first sight.

It's better to fail at raising children by trying to pass something on to them than to let others do it all for you.

Yes, and all I advocate is giving children the opportunity to learn lots of things, but not necessarily choosing one very specific one like "math" and making them learn it.

I don't disagree with a little pushing, but some children will just never be good at math....

My mother forced me to practice classical string instruments from a very young age, and as a child, I fought her viciously over it.

Because she pushed through my complaints and bore my abuse, I now have deeply embedded musical skills that have changed the trajectory of my life experience for the better.

As an adult, I try to thank her for this whenever I can. I don’t know if I’ll be strong enough to give my own future children this gift.

> Oh yeah, it's because we want them to get jobs

Interesting, I thought we're doing it because we don't want them to be stupid.

You're right, but this is a different problem. Often people like doing certain things, but have trouble getting to them. I love boardgames, and I'd love to introduce my kids to some of my favorite games, but I need to set up the game, relearn the rules, explain them etc. The "cost to entry" (in terms of energy/motivation) is pretty high even though I know I'm going to like it.

I'm working on convincing my kids that maths is just cheat codes. Once you know the cheat code for figuring out a math problem the actual working out is fast and easy... (like turning on creative mode in minecraft)

Its a work in process...

This reminded me of how I cheesed a lot of advanced math in high school.

I'd memorize the formulas we were being tested on right before the tests were handed out. Then I'd write them in the top of the test immediately and before I forgot them. Then I'd ace the test. Lol.

There's a reason that most my my Mechanical Engineering courses allowed note sheets during exams. The Fundamentals of Engineering exam comes with a large book of formulae. The test is really about how to apply the formula, not a test of remembering it.

Maybe the difficulty is not for the kids, but for the parents to allocate time to do the activity the kids like. Maybe kids doing math by themselves without any adult support would not work? Don't know which problems to choose, don't know how to get unstuck, things like that. Or at least the parents think so.

Roblox and reading seem different from this perspective.

> Math? That’s about as easy to form a habit with as running 5 miles. How do I get her to love math (or other good things) in the first place?

> The hard part isn’t getting by kids to do things they love, it’s getting them to do things they DON’T love.

Step 1 is defining your goal. Assume you will not change the fact that your daughter doesn't like math. What capabilities do you want her to have that will come from studying it?

Focus on those, not on trying to build a habit of math-for-its-own-sake.

(If you don't think there are any particular capabilities that she will need, then I would suggest having her study math is probably not a good use of her time.)

Just like "habit stacking" worked for the author, maybe you should try what might be called "interests or hobby stacking". Let them do what they love after completing something that they don't love doing.

>The hard part isn’t getting by kids to do things they love, it’s getting them to do things they DON’T love.

Easy. Give her access to Roblox only after she does her math for the day.

The hard part is getting your kids to love things they don't love yet.

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