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creeble

No mention of Cloudflare’s own large portfolio of software patents.

Wonder when they’ll start enforcing their patent on CNAME flattening, for example:

https://patents.justia.com/patent/11159479

Edit; clarity

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It's a defensive patent portfolio. They use it to counter sue if a competitor sues them.

Have they made any commitments, binding or non-binding, to this effect?

That might reduce the effectiveness of this strategy.

There is precedent for this kindof thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Invention_Network

How would a commitment to not use their patent portfolio offensively prevent them from effectively using it defensively?

For the commitment to be meaningful at all, it has to be partially binding, which could be exploited. And a totally nonbinding one could just as easily be given by a patent troll.

> For the commitment to be meaningful at all, it has to be partially binding

A non-binding and less-meaningful commitment would still be something. They could easily start there and they have not.

I don't see what they'd gain from that. Also, could calling your own patents "defensive" be seen as admission that they're bogus?

Edit: Removed a bone-headed hypothetical.

> My understanding is a patent holder must defend their rights, if they are aware of the infringement, at the peril of losing them.

Pretty sure that's just for trademarks.

Agh. Absolutely. Wrong flavor of "intellectual property". Thanks.

And that's why Stallman is so firm that there is no such thing as "intellectual property". As soon as you start using that term, you start believing there is something more general and meaningful to it and start muddying the concepts. But it is just a mirage.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.en.html

You lose a trademark if you don't defend it. I don't believe the same is true of patents.

My face is red. Thanks. I didn't stop and think long enough before I posted.

I recognize my position is far from airtight, but I'm honestly way, way less bothered by the fact that companies like Cloudflare have a large patent portfolio simply because they actually build useful stuff related to their patents.

There is a robust debate to be had on the validity of obvious or generic software patents that only questionably constitute legitimate "invention", but that's almost entirely separate from the problem of the bottom feeding pond scum that collect patents for no other reason than to attempt to enrich themselves via parasitic extraction from people who had similar ideas but actually used them to create something useful. The former might be trying to get exclusivity from something that anyone could have come up with, but at least their idea is useful to someone. The latter brings nothing of value to anyone except maybe themselves, and arguably negative value to everyone else.

The real danger is if Cloudflare is threatened and on life support - does their culture maintain or what if it changes hands or fails completely and it's patent portfolio is acquired by litigious trolls.

As happened to Caspian Networks in the current case.

There is no resolution to the troll problem if you just keep playing the same game. So I’m not sure why we congratulate companies for “taking down trolls” when their own patent portfolio will (just as likely as not) add to the troll problem of the future.

Would Project Jengo pay me if I could show prior art for CNAAME flattening? No, because it’s their patent.

All major tech companies are building up a portfolio of patents, as a deterrent as much as anything else.

So that when competitors come knocking on the door, they can use the portfolio to say, "Well okay, but then you owe me license money for $x, $y, $z from my portfolio, how about we just not bother with this, agreed?"

Why should there be a mention about their patents?

So that one can begin to judge how duplicitous their claims in defence of another's 'invalid' patent my be.

If Cloudflare starts trying to sue or shake down folks with their patents, this will be a very valid point. Until then it's a little silly; everybody holds patents for (at least) defensive reasons.

But that’s generally where the trolls get their patents from - what were once large companies (like, in Cloudflare’s recent case, Caspian Networks).

My point (if any) is that while we pat Cloudflare on the back for “taking down a troll”, they are complicit (as are many companies these days) in assisting the creation of future trolls who will mine their own, more general, perhaps “obvious to someone familiar with the art”, patents like CNAME flattening.

Sure, but what's the solution (if you're Cloudflare)? You can patent CNAME flattening, only use it defensively, and maybe you eventually go bankrupt and someone scoops it up (not great). Or you can NOT patent it...and some troll probably will, and can now use it offensively.

The solution is patent reform on this kind of obvious bullshit, but that's not something Cloudflare can solve.

Exactly. As long as that's how the game is played you must play it or you will be sued out of existence.

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