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Comment by shermantanktop | Hacker News Reader

I’m in the US, with European family (parent, cousins, etc.) and I can’t count the number of comments that I’ve heard or read that begin with “I am from Europe” and go on to make a very sensible, reasonable assertion about how things ought to be in the US.

Well, they aren’t that way. However your town works, Detroit is different. NYC is different. Tampa is different.

At some point the person who is repeatedly surprised at what doesn’t make sense to them has an obligation to either accept that their expectations aren’t universal, or to dig deeper. Maintaining perpetual shock and confusion is not a sign of moral righteousness or principle, it’s provincial.

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> or to dig deeper.

I think they're asking you to dig deeper.

> However your town works, Detroit is different. NYC is different. Tampa is different.

Yup. But you know what? Europe isn't just one town either. It's not even one country, one currency, one language, or one alphabet. Αθήνα isn't Berlin isn't Paris; Cambridge isn't like London isn't like Glasgow isn't like Belfast, and only the latter has "RPG Avenue" nicknamed due to the weapon fired at the cops, and yet the English (do not go to Belfast and describe it as "England") are so anti-gun that even the cops don't want to be armed.

America isn't unique in being diverse, it's not even half as diverse as its self image makes claim.

Learn about the differences that mean the rest of us don't face your challenges, and then use that to make your cities better.

> America isn't unique in being diverse,

As a European who spent 3 years driving all around the western half of the US, I really wouldn't even call America very diverse. The climate changes more than the people. The difference between city and rural is bigger than the difference between north and south; rural people in Montana and Arizona just aren't that different.

I understand your frustration about the "I'm from Europe" comments, but you have to appreciate that those comments come from a similar frustration.

The universally shared image of the US is that they loudmouth how great they are compared to the rest of the world. So when news comes out on how the US fails so dramatically on very basic public/social services, it leaves people from outside the US stumped.

I'd be interested to see evidence supporting your assertion of 'universally shared image'.

The image of the United States is perceived not nearly so negative in the counties which I visited: Jordan, China, Vietnam.

I'll add a fourth country, which I haven't visited. The image of the United States in Israel, while complex, includes a great deal of admiration. As a country with security always top of mind, overall Israel broadly admires the United States' extensive defense capability and power. I doubt most Israelis would describe the US as 'loudmouth'.

Similar nuances could be laid out for the countries I listed above.

Many world citizens can parse media of a random football fan screaming 'USA!' from the state department's lengthy policy positions. The perceived image you describe resembles most closely to me a self reflection found often within the US.

Nonetheless, I do think our culture could stand to posture in a more reserved fashion broadly, while not being afraid to mention where appropriate...

We remain a positive world standout in a variety ways.

> Many world citizens can parse media of a random football fan screaming 'USA!' from the state department's lengthy policy positions.

Most recently, I believe, the main contributor to that image was the former president of the US, not some American at the FIFA World Cup. Trump providing nonstop material for satire and comedy shows didn't help either.

In general the international image of the US seems to be better under democrat presidents.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2021/06/10/americas-image...

That article broadly matches with my personal observations as a European.

> I can say with high confidence that the image of the United States is perceived not nearly so negative in the following counties which I personally visited: Jordan, China, Vietnam.

Eh. I can't speak to Jordan or Vietnam, but in China opinions on the US are usually a toss up. US (cultural) exports are warring with opinionated news that doesn't portray the US any better than US news portrays China.

> As a country with security always top of mind, overall Israel broadly admires the United States' extensive defense capability and power. I doubt most Israelis would describe the US as 'loudmouth'.

You're right that overall Israelis have an extremely favorable opinion of the US (ignoring their Arab population of course), however I have to point out these opinions aren't mutually exclusive.

The only surprising thing about Israel is that Trump apparently was more liked there than Biden is. They still seem to think Trump is more arrogant though.

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/israeli-views-...

I definitely agree that the president has a huge affect on US image on the world stage. The critism of the analogy I laid out is fair. Trump arguably regularly carried himself in a way that aligns with the narrative we're discussing.

Props for citing evidence via Pew. Just FYI, that Israel poll arguably became obsolete in the weeks following the 10/7 terrorist attack. Not sure where things currently stand.

I do wish there was a bit more nuance. The discussion of favorability is complex. I was speaking specifically to the comment regarding the US being perceived as a 'loudmouth how great they are compared to the rest of the world'.

As far as Europe broadly is conencerned... I would probably agree that public perception does include a component resembling the aforementioned perception. I'd speculate that this probably has a fair bit to do with many European nations exceeding the US in various metrics surrounding healthcare, happiness, safety, income distribution ect. Those critism are fair ofc.

I suppose the distilled point of my comment was that there is a lot of nuance to US image from nation to nation. Myself, I didn't realize just how respected the US is amongst so many nations. Even arguably adverserial nations often respect a great number of things about the US. I find it regrettable that the US domestic population often has very unfavorable views of their own nation, without giving adequate and nuanced consideration to our many accomplishments. Often less developed nations focus more on some of the bigger picture factors which are worthy of full consideration.

> I'll add a fourth country, which I haven't visited. The image of the United States in Israel, while complex, includes a great deal of admiration. As a country with security always top of mind, overall Israel broadly admires the United States' extensive defense capability and power. I doubt most Israelis would describe the US as 'loudmouth'.

I'm from Amsterdam and most people there adore the US as well. Our culture is heavily influenced by it as most people on the street now speak a curious mixture of Dutch and American English. The country became strongly neoliberal as a result too (which hurt me as a socialist personally) and even got caught up in the Trumpist outcry over things perceived as "woke". 24% voted for Wilders who is basically a mixture of Trump-style populism and fascism in the last election. The country is really messed up now.

But, the police is not militarised as it is in the US and I'm really glad for that. Even though gangs do have a lot of guns. They're not easy to come by in Holland but we have an unmonitored border with Belgium where they are freely available in criminal circles. We still have some 'common sense' in police approach, at least for now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'No_Way_to_Prevent_This,'_Says...

? A region has such a weak rule of law, that police can terrorize a man without consequences - and a person from a vast region of various states were that is rather unheard of (and people travel way more) is provincial for calling that out? I'm honestly confused. We had some "valley rulers" in europe, but the law tends to get rid of them, bloodfeuds and other idiocies included. And any low point ought to remain shocking. Getting numb to pain is not normal.

Well yes but the mindset is different.

A relative worked at the police in downtown Amsterdam. Where gang violence is also a problem, only a few years ago people had to duck in a tram to avoid stray bullets from gangs firing automatic weapons.

This didn't really cause a militarisation of the police though. The problem with that is that it leads to further escalation on both sides. And ordinary people can get caught up in that like what is happening with the swatting.

Also I've lived in many different EU countries and swatting is just not a thing anywhere. The US really is pretty unique in this phenomenon within the western world.

For all the problems caused by militarization of the police, is there any evidence that it leads to “escalation on both sides”? Gangs using automatic weapons seems to be escalated well beyond America already.

You are right about this. I think people outside of US have a hard time imagining a place where first response basically requires guns and violence

We mostly have a hard time reconciling that with the idea of a developed nation.

Well, info that some problem does not exist elsewhere at all and there is an obvious solution to that is useful.

Even if that means that situation in USA is sad/broken.

So it should not be assumed to be a functioning first world country?

So why do you think it is necessary in the US, to swat someones house because of a anonymous call and not in europe?

Since it is defined in constitution, one should not be surprised, that US police expects anyone could be armed.

More so, than in EU yes, but here there are also lots of weapons in private homes. They still don't kick in doors, because of anonymous calls.

And if I could make a bet, I doubt that they treat the houses of rich people the same way. Because they have the means to sue, to fight back.

The constitution also says “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated”

An interesting point that I am amenable too, I certainly appreciate the mental connections you make here. Though, I could say that based on these comments this isnt a universal problem, and that preserving a police force that has no regard for civil rights is not a sign of, say, conservative values, its fear.

I am well aware that we have gang violence and all types of problems. What I do not see is a justification for things like violating someones property, repeatedly. The man has no obligation to cooperate with shit, and the police have no right to barge in anyways, that isnt how probably cause is supposed to work.

They are reminding you that the reality you are experiencing is not normal and should not be normalised. They are stating that it is not only possible to not be like this, but it's actually a baseline expectation in most of the rest of the developed world.

You can keep burying your head in the sand, make excuses for unacceptable behaviour such as swatting with "but it's extraordinary circumstances with very specific context" and bemoan the "provincials" for expecting the US behaves, or at least trends towards, a society that resembles the rest of the democratic, civilized world.

Or you can say enough, and demand action. One is a lot easier than the other.

You don't think this is the place to share a sensible solution to the problem we're discussing?

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