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In what world is annexing territory you don't even control on the basis of a referendum you canceled before rescheduling due to losses on the battlefield working towards an amicable settlement?
Since February 2022, I haven't seen much evidence that Russia has made any serious attempts to achieve an amicable settlement, much less consistently worked towards those goals.
Since then, Russia has repeatedly offered to negotiate a settlement, but Ukraine refuses to negotiate.
You can believe that’s a good idea, but indisputably it’s Ukraine who won’t negotiate.
Last I head Putin was only prepared to negotiate based on the understanding that all occupied territories would stay under Russian control.
Ukraine should have handled this better and also signaling being open for negotiations. On the condition of returning all territories that are within their internationally recognized borders.
Ukraine has passed a law saying they absolutely refuse to negotiate a peace settlement with Putin.
Again, you can believe that’s righteous… but all I see is a world in which Ukraine has permanently lost territory due to failing to implement peace accords a decade ago while killing or displacing ~10% of their population (4M in 45M).
I think that’s a tragedy — and for what? …a worse outcome?
This is nothing else than your typical post colonial/imperial war where Ukraine fights for its independence while Russia tries to reclaim some its former imperial territories.
Just watch what Russian politicians say, what is being written in the news, what all those political talkshows say. They are not even trying to hide it. Its mostly here in the west that you have those discussions.
There’s nothing about this which is colonial/imperial: Ukraine was already separate for decades, peacefully, until outside nations supported violent overthrow of a democratically elected government which followed its rise to power with oppression of an ethnic group.
If we’re discussing what politicians say, then I see:
- Russia is making points about how the regions they annexed were oppressed after they made efforts to reach peace settlements
- US is frothing at the mouth about harming Russia
- Ukraine is saying crazy things, like laying claims to part of Russia.
Do you have any links to this? I am not aware of Ukraine laying claim to any part of Russia, asides from those parts that the international community still regards as Ukrainian territory that Russia illegally annexed (namely, Crimea, Donbass, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson).
Which is completely backasswards of course. But because a well-spoken, powerful man on TV (who also aligns with his geopolitical / moral views), in this case Putin, is saying those things -- a lot of folks have no problem believing it. Ditto with the supposed "coup" in 2014 (which is somewhat more nuanced, but not all that nuanced or hard to figure out).
And not only believing this nonsensse - but sucking it up as if it were air.
BTW strictly speaking, we don't know if the grandparent actually believes in these particular bullet points -- they aren't saying this is what they believe, only "this is what politicians are saying." But it's basically in tune with other misconceptions that they (the grandparent) has been putting forth in this thread.
I really can not see any way such an action of a massively corrupt leader selling out his people and acting against their stated interest would not result in massive protests. During which Yanu chose to flee his country.
Also there have been two elections since then so who cares.
The trouble with this narrative is that it's fictional and not supported by facts. It is no different from Hitler's delusions about global Jewish conspiracy against the Germans. One can subscribe to these narratives only if they accept known falsehoods as the truth and reject many facts as lies.
Even rhetorically, arguments like the oppression of ethnic Russians in Ukraine are preposterous given how Russia has become one of the most oppressive places on the planet. Such allegations sound like Hitler justifying the bombing of London with the way the English treated the Scots or the Irish - while turning a blind eye to the Holocaust going on at home.
The annexation should signal to the world that Russia is not interested in any serious peace settlements. Indeed, it should be a strong signal that Russia is uninterested in acknowledging that its military is not capable of achieving a state that makes concessionless peace deals possible. I will fault Ukraine for many things, but being unwilling to negotiate with someone who will not moderate their goals in line with their ability to achieve them is not one of them.
> I will fault Ukraine for many things, but being unwilling to negotiate with someone who will not moderate their goals in line with their ability to achieve them is not one of them.
This is something Ukraine should consider, after the massive failure of their Sprint/Summer Offensive of 2023.
Ukraine needs to moderate their aims in light of their military failures — before the fanaticism leads to their destruction.
Taking into account the daily terror raids conducted with artillery and missiles on towns and villages of annexed parts of Ukraine like Kherson, I don't think you'll find many suckers who'll fall for that excuse.
If Russian government feels strongly about protecting people, particularly ethnic Russians, they could start by ordering the police not to beat and molest peaceful protesters on the Red Square anymore.
Okay, since you brought this up, I have to know now. How does annexation of that territory protect the inhabitants there, compared to a world where Russia merely occupies the territory?
For bonus points, please explain why that offsets the effect it has of lengthening the war (since it makes the Russian and Ukrainian positions more, not less, irreconcilable).
Which law are you referring to?
In the same way that the guy who tackles you in a dark alleyway and puts a knife to your neck would prefer that you submit to his demands "amicably".