Comment by Animats | Hacker News Reader

Comment by Animats | Hacker News Reader

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The US government-owned facilities are not the only US source of 155mm rounds. NAMMO [1] is a major manufacturer, and they have a facility in Mesa, AZ. Here's their marketing video for 155mm rounds.[2] Nammo's management complains that they are being offered 3-4 year contracts, and they need 10-15 year contracts to build new factories. Peacetime demand for large-caliber ammo is very low, so when there's not a war on, factories are mothballed.

BAE and Rheinmetall also make 155mm rounds, and many of those are going to Ukraine. Israel is unhappy that the US stores of ammo in Israel are being sent to Ukraine, and is ordering domestic manufacture from Elbit.

The article doesn't make a clear distinction between the foundry and machining steps in the process. The first part involves casting and forging molten metal, and the second is ordinary machining. They don't have to be carried out in the same plant. Either or both can be outsourced separately.

Filling, where explosives go into shells, is done in dedicated plants with lots of separation between buildings, buried storage bunkers, and many other safety precautions. That's the dangerous part but not the bottleneck.

Here's a modern 155mm shell forging plant in Germany.[3]

[1] https://www.nammo.com/product/our-products/ammunition/large-...

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrUV1uktRZg

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNtmrYeBwWQ

> Israel is unhappy that the US stores of ammo in Israel are being sent to Ukraine

Yes, they have their own ground-leveling to do after all..

They have JDAMs, and their opposition doesn't have AA... or tanks. Less need for 155mm

Grounds not going to level itself now is it

I somehow doubt Israel uses a lot of 155 mm artillery shells per day at the moment.

Not only is Israel using them, Israel is trying to get the US to pay for them.[1]

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/13/...

Just waking up to find this on HN. The points you make are completely correct. I tried to keep the focus on just US production, as I was specifically interested if there was anything I could do to help. Splitting up the process was something I considered, but didn't have the bandwidth to put into knowing when/how you split it. In a crunch, I'm still not sure if it would be best to split it or to just do what's usually best and co-locate all the machines (or some combination of both). Similarly, I couldn't get good answers about how many shifts the existing facility runs. I expect it's 2, and in a war, it's easier to staff the 3rd shift (or automate it in a new facility).

The contract length part I covered, and I'm convinced that's the main issue.

> Here's a modern 155mm shell forging plant in Germany.[3]

> [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNtmrYeBwWQ

That appears to be a Serbian company, though?

Looks like someone commissioned this Serbian company to make machinery for making shells. Not clear if it was a German client.

> Peacetime demand for large-caliber ammo is very low

Even in the US?

While the American Dream of howitzer ownership may be alive and well among the 0.01%, it's getting harder and harder for the rest of us to maintain our $4,000/round artillery habits.

A modest proposal: the US Army should offer obsolete and surplus artillery in exchange for handguns. Given the price of ammunition, correlation between poverty and gun violence, the logistics involved in large-scale artillery theft, and the comparative complexity of non-assisted suicide by howitzer, this policy seems like a sure-fire way to drastically reduce the number of lethal gun crimes committed in the US.

> (...) it's getting harder and harder for the rest of us to maintain our $4,000/round artillery habits.

The $4,000/round figure sparked my curiosity, and after checking it looks like the actual unit price is below $2,000.

There are some beefy pricetags being floated around, buy they are calculated indirectly by dividing the total cost of a ammo supply contract by the number of artillery rounds ordered. From the article, I wouldn't be surprised if those contracts also covered investments required to ramp up production, which is also covered by this article.

Cursory search suggests prices ranging from $400 to $1,800,000 per round for what I assume are wildly different types of 155mm ammunition, though I'm willing to bet the $1,800,000 figure is the total cost of a canceled production program that planned to deliver a large number of rounds, amortized across the small number of rounds actually delivered before the program was canceled.

At $1,800,000/round, firing hollow rounds loosely packed with $100 bills and a note promising another volley as soon as the target agrees to stand down would probably be a more cost-effective option.

Large caliber here would mean artillery size, maybe mortar or grenade launcher.

None of that is commonly consumed by civilians. There are routes to get there, but it seemed difficult to me (I looked once upon a time).

The largest caliber even somewhat commonly used by civilians is .50 BMG (12.7x99mm NATO). I have seen 20mm rifles and ammo for sale (once), but it is a HUGE pain in the ass to get them and probably rightfully so.

Anything over .50 is automatically considered a destructive device by the ATF unless a specific sporting exemption is given to it (that's generally only for big game rifles). Getting one of those requires a fistful of certifications last I checked; I think you effectively have to be an arms dealer to get one (or at least pretending enough to be certified as one).

None of this is legal advice, talk to the ATF and/or a lawyer before trying to buy anything too exotic.

anything larger than 7.62mm (.30, like 30-06 or 308, or maybe 12ga slugs) is comparatively uncommon -- even in the US. clearly this is disappointing, as the founding fathers intended for us to own 12 pounder cannons. "tally ho lads!", etc.

and when it comes to mortars, arty, etc, they don't fire that many rounds in training and exercises. even during the Iraqi-led pushbacks against ISIS, where US Marine artillery fired a ton of rounds in support, there was little over-all impact on supply. before that, counter insurgency work generally doesn't use much artillery -- though lord knows they tried to until around mid-to-late 2004.

by comparison, estimates are as high as 20k-50k shells per day in Ukraine.

I doubt Texan gun ranges need a lot of 155mm.

If it were allowed and available I bet a huge amount of Texans would be buying 155mm just for bragging rights.

Alright, I'll bite, because I bet there's somebody out there that knows: why isn't it allowed? What rule by the ATF says that 150mm isn't an arm allowed by the second amendment?

It’s not administrative, but legislative.

ATF is empowered to interpret these laws. The law is quite clear that a howitzer is regulated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destructive_device

one more reason to buy an oversized truck -- "gotta haul my ammunition!"

You also need it so you can move your towed artillery piece to shoot the rounds.

It just makes sense.

Explosive shells are legally considered “destructive devices” and each round would require a separate tax stamp.

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