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Comment by tw04 | Hacker News Reader

There was a decent Netflix special on this - 13th amendment (I believe that was the name). Basically slavery never actually ended, it’s just hidden in the prison system now. Society is ok with it because we’ve somehow gotten this distorted view that prison is about punishment and not rehabilitation.

Then wonder why we have such a high rate of recidivism.

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While I certainly would not support the abuses in the article, being required to work 5 days a week whether you want to or not is rehabilitative for many people who cannot hold down a job because they lack discipline and patience to appreciate that this is how productive citizens afford the basics of life. Along with drug addiction treatment, education, and psychological services, participation in labor is part of making them productive members of society again.

It should also not be for the profit of private companies. They are maintained by our tax dollars, and the public should reap that benefit.

> While I certainly would not support the abuses in the article, being required to work 5 days a week whether you want to or not is rehabilitative for many people who cannot hold down a job because they lack discipline and patience to appreciate that this is how productive citizens afford the basics of life.

That’s odd, because the countries with the lowest rate of recidivism don’t have forced labor. “Lack of discipline” isn’t the reason most of them are in prison, it’s lack of skills and opportunity. Nothing about the prison industrial complex is fixing either of those problems.

It is subjecting them to a dog-eat-dog culture of violence though. Not exactly surprising people generally come out even less able to productively participate in society than when they go in.

Prison labor has no impact on recidivism, so it can't be considered rehabilitative in its current form: https://mn.gov/doc/assets/Effects%20of%20Prison%20Labor%20on..., https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/impact-f....

I couldn't find any studies that specifically focused on involuntary labor; presumably some of the people in the linked studies were willing to work and not forced.

Participation in prison labor significantly improved post-prison employment outcomes, but it yielded mixed results for prison misconduct and had little overall impact on recidivism. When we examined the extent to which prisoners participated in prison labor, the best outcomes were observed for those who spent a greater proportion of their overall confinement time working a job in prison. As the percentage of prison time spent working increased, we found significant improvements in prison misconduct, post-prison employment, and several measures of recidivism.

Work programs aren't magic, and they're certainly not going to cure sociopathy. They're a means to train and habituate people whose criminal behavior may have been significantly affected by their inability to maintain gainful employment. Of course we should continually try to improve them for relevancy and effectiveness.

Wow this comment reads like it was written 150 years ago. You should really both read the article and watch the documentary about which you’re replying to, you'll learn a lot.

Between racially-biased mandatory minimum sentences, forced prison labor, and the fact that felons lose their right to vote, the United States prison industrial complex is a system that truly isn’t far off from slavery.

You're confounding a lot of issues here that I made no reference to at all. But suffice it to say, you seem to have a fundamental problem with people, as determined by a court of law to have broken the social contract (courts which could be corrupt - but again, separate issue), losing any modicum of their rights as free citizens. That is a fringe opinion.

Someone referenced a documentary claiming prison system is modern day slavery. You refuted their claims pulled from said documentary with standard prison industrial complex rhetoric, which is completely unfounded and not backed by any kind of real-world data, especially in the US. Try digging in a bit. It’s irrelevant if it’s a fringe opinion.

"Slavery as a cure for NEEThood," is an interesting (read: horrifying) proposition. Assuming that people "lack discipline and patience" is begging the question; the requirement of productivity to justify one's existence, post-industrialization, is circumspect, particularly in an economic system that relies on some level of unemployment to keep prices for even basic goods down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Praise_of_Idleness_and_Othe...

But I assume you’re talking about being paid for that work

Otherwise it's a lovely endorsement for labor camps.

This is an issue that needs to be considered in the context of all the ways US prisons in various states are highly exploitative and abusive.

Noted this in a comment above, but restating it here: If someone has wronged me or my family or society at large in some kind of serious manner, rehabilitating is not really a concern for me. I think they should be punished. Plain and simple.

Yes, we know, thank you. As the moral and spiritual arguments against bloodthirsty retribution are well established in most of the world's belief systems I won't try to rehash them here. Yours isn't a fringe view, we're all aware of it and it has been taken into account, in fact is the basis of the current system. Please allow us to discuss other approaches. Don't stress too much, I'm sure we will continue to torture the slaves.

> "Well established"

Not really.

I hope you or your family are never hurt by a criminal. However, if that does happen, I assume you will be okay with the criminal going to a summer camp where they sing songs, play games, and eat bonbons. ;)

Incomprehensible to you that this a sincerely held belief? In fact I have been the victim of violent crimes, and I have given statements advocating for maximum leniency. I want what is best for my community, and retribution is not.

> Incomprehensible to you that this a sincerely held belief? In fact I have been the victim of violent crimes, and I have given statements advocating for maximum leniency.

Well, I won't call you a liar. I've seen people do this before, and I've always been just... confused.

> I want what is best for my community, and retribution is not.

I think this is the crux of the disagreement.

My belief is that retribution is the immune system of civilization.

> My belief is that retribution is the immune system of civilization.

Have you engaged with any justice system that isn't based on retribution? Have you seen the results they achieve? Norway is the classic example. They give more lenient punishment for crimes, their prisons are vastly more comfortable, and actively try to educate their prison population. All things Americans (as a general point) would scoff at.

The result? Norway has a vastly lower recidivism rate. 20% vs 75+% in the US. Norway is a uniquely good example, but similar results play out across Northern Europe.

> Have you engaged with any justice system that isn't based on retribution?

Most people here who live in SF have done just that, not by their own choice - and the results are not pretty. "Restorative" justice might or might not work in places like Norway, but let's just say other implementations have been quite bad.

Neither Norway nor SF use anything like a restorative justice framework.

So again, yes, thank you for stating the mainstream position on retribution. Please allow those of us who are interested to at least discuss other possibilities for our selves and our world.

>I've seen people do this before, and I've always been just... confused.

That compassion and concern for the wider community is this alien to you is sad.

Have you ever been wronged in a serious manner?

I haven’t been, but I’ve been close with multiple people who have been wronged personally (near-deadly assault, unprovoked, all cases unrelate) and they all came around quickly to not wanting any vengeance on the assailant, legal or not. I was surprised, frankly.

In all cases survivors just wanted to move on, and simply not hear about the perps.

Not sure why you’re being downvoted. It’s an excellent documentary.

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