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Comment by fortran77 | Hacker News Reader

A few times I've seen a message in my car (I have an "S" and a "Plaid", neither of which are in this recall) that the power steering may not be operating properly. But despite the message, it never felt any different. The message just disappeared and I never worried about it after that...

> Also emerging on Friday, Tesla is recalling nearly all of the vehicles it has sold in the U.S. because some warning lights on the instrument panel are too small.

What warning lights on the instrument panel? Is this just a software update to the LCD display?

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https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2024/RCLRPT-24V051-2023.PDF

> On affected vehicles, the letter font size of the Brake, Park and Antilock brake system (ABS) visual warning indicators is smaller than 3.2 mm (1/8 inch), as prescribed in FMVSS Nos. 105 and 135.

> affected vehicles will receive an over-the-air software remedy

Most of the time, these "recalls" are OTA software updates. My guess is that the word "recall" is necessary wording but doesn't imply anymore a mandatory physical fix on the car.

The meaning of the word “recall” has been eroded. At this point we would be better served by renaming it to a more descriptive term.

Dangerous defect notice.

“Initiated safety recalls require a manufacturer's action to announce and remedy the defects.

A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards.”

So to rewrite the prior example: Tesla issued a dangerous defect notice on all of the vehicles it has sold in the U.S. because some warning lights are too small to meet minimum safety standards.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls

Recall is a term of art in the automotive safety world, as you just posted. It isn’t eroded - if the government decides the fix has to be applied, that’s a recall. Whether or not the fix is OTA doesn’t play into the classification as a recall.

I am aware it is a term of art and that the nature of the fix is independent of the presence of a dangerous defect requiring prompt remediation i.e. a recall.

Unfortunately, lay understanding of the term results in objectively wrong statements like: “it is not a recall, it is just a OTA software update”. We would be better served if NHTSA replaced the term with a descriptive alternative that better communicates the intent and nature of the term.

I suggest: “dangerous defect notice” as it is descriptive, unambiguous, sufficiently alarming, and clearly indicates it is a property of the product instead of the remediation.

I suggest: “dangerous defect notice” as it is descriptive, unambiguous, sufficiently alarming, and clearly indicates it is a property of the product instead of the remediation.

Disagree on this suggestion. “Notice” to me doesn’t imply a necessary response, whereas “recall” does.

But, I do agree with the general sentiment that people don’t understand the legal obligations that come with a recall. And I wouldn’t object to a change of language by the NHSTA, as long as it’s consistent - I would be against any language that tended to differentiate “OTA recall” from “physical recall” for the same reason I don’t like “notice”. That, and the NHSTA may or may not know the full scope of remediation before issuing a recall.

“Mandatory safety update” perhaps?

“Defect” implies a necessary response. A defective product is a product that a manufacturer is legally obligated to repair, replace, or refund. A “defect notice” is thus a notice that the manufacturer is legally obligated to remediate the problem.

It is also consistent with existing terminology, see: “Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect”. We see that the “recall” refers not to the remedy, but to the notice that the manufacturer has obligations to remedy the defect.

Note that “mandatory safety update” is also incorrect because:

“Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle.”

So, a update is not necessary, it is usually just the cheapest option which is why it is the most common. Also note how the remediations proposed are consistent with standard defect remediation as I laid out above.

If we renamed regulatory terms of art every time members of the public misinterpreted them, we would be changing terminology so often that we'd end up with everyone being confused, not just some people.

> Recall is a term of art in the automotive safety world, as you just posted.

Also in consumer products in general. Here is a list of recalls from the Consumer Products Safety Commission for example [1].

Sometimes the remedy is to take the product to a dealer to be fixed. Sometimes it is an OTA update. Sometimes it is that the manufacturer will send a repairperson to your home to fix the problem. Sometimes it is a non-OTA update (e.g., there was one for a Samsung washer a while back where if your model didn't have WiFi they would send you a dongle to plug in that would install the update).

[1] https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls

We use the same term in the med device industry as well. I primarily work on software-as-a-medical-device (SaMD) and a "recall" typically almost always involves a software and/or documentation update.

Especially when the recent recall over driver attention detection was obviously the NHTSA going after Tesla and not a real problem that needed a solution: and the fix seems to have made using autopilot/FSD more dangerous by increasing the amount the screen nags the driver.

It’s not warning lights. If you’re getting that wording from NHTSA, they have their heads up their asses.

Once every other month I drive about 11hrs two ways. I'll pick a charger every 2-3 hours. 2 hours away the Tesla will say "Preconditioning battery for charging". It's pretty clear this is a bug. It's been there for at least 3 years, as long as I've owned the car. It doesn't give me confidence that FSD is going to work if something so basic fails.

Another thing that happens is driving down an effectively straight highway with 2 lanes on each side and only the cruise control on it will suddenly slam on the breaks in the middle of no where on clear day with no obstructions in sight. Again, no confidence in FSD.

I've also seen your issue where it tells me it steered to miss something but I don't feel any change.

Note: I don't have FSD nor do I have the highway lane change feature.

I have a normal ICE car but it has a supplemental 12v battery for its start-stop system. When that battery gets low/close to EOL, an error message will pop up stating that "steering assist may be limited." I haven't detected any difference in handling however.

Perhaps it is a signal that the 12v battery is not fully charged on Teslas as well.

Warning lights/icons on the display being too small/subtle seems very on-brand for Tesla. Musk was willing to just eat fines over the aesthetics of the airbag warning on sun visors (which I admit I personally despise).

> which I admit I personally despise

That's extremely funny. I don't even notice them, but my dad ruined his sun visor once trying to get those damned stickers off, hahaha.

One thing that bugs me is "red" appearing on the dashboard for things that aren't warnings -- like album or podcast cover art. I still get distracted when I see something red show up, and then look to realize it's the "Commentary" podcast logo, or something like that. I think that red should be reserved for something that needs immediate attention, and that album cover art shouldn't be on the dash.

> Is this just a software update

Yes, most likely - but "recall for every vehicle sold in the U.S" gets you more clicks.

Recall in this context means the government (NHSTA usually) has decided a fix is required. OTA or in-person doesn’t matter - what matters is the legal obligation of the manufacturer to provide a timely safety update.

Recall is an industry term with a specific regulatory and safety context.

Understood, but it also get clicks, especially for a company as loathed as Tesla.

Typical low quality journalism. It’s not warning lights, it’s a graphic asset (akin to a CSS sprite if you know web development) and the government wants a few pixels tweaked in an over the air software update to make some icons into i18n-unfriendly English words instead of internationally recognized iconography.

To be fair the subset of icons in question also contained words at a smaller size but this change will lose the iconic look for those elements and substitute an ever so slightly larger font word like BRAKE to be shown in the same placement icon-sized on the screen. The article saying “warning lights” is just par for legacy media these days.

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