Comment by mbrock | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mbrock | Hacker News Reader

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I think this question is deeply rooted in the zeitgeist!

For me, investigation into it over the years has led me to Zen Buddhism, which though ancient seems to me almost incredibly relevant to our age.

It's a question of attention, awareness, reality & virtuality, mental health beyond the crude categories of psychiatry, desire, comfort, sacrifice, renunciation, virtue...

As someone steeped in internets and technology, this question is like a lens through which I view my whole life purpose and aspiration. And it seems increasingly relevant for everyone I know.

All this stuff is reality. It's affecting our lives, second by second. Our relationships, our selves, our life worlds. Not bad, not good, but profound and worth paying close attention to.

Here's a nice quote by Dogen Zenji:

"Even when you are uncertain, do not use this one day wastefully. It is a rare treasure to value. Do not compare it with an enormous jewel. Do not compare it with a dragon's bright pearl. Old sages valued this one day more than their own living bodies. Reflect on this quietly. A dragon's pearl may be found. An enormous jewel may be acquired. But this one day out of a hundred years cannot be retrieved once it is lost. What skillful means can retrieve a day that is passed? No historical documents have recorded such means. Not to waste time is to contain the passage of days and months within your skin bag, without leaking. Thus sages and wise ones in olden times valued each moment, day, and month more than their own eyeballs or the nation's land. To waste the passage of time is to be confused and stained in the floating world of name and gain. Not to miss the passage of time is to be in alignment with the way.

"Once you have clarity, do not neglect a single day. Wholeheartedly practice for the sake of the way and speak for the sake of the way. We know that buddha ancestors of old did not neglect each day's endeavor. You should reflect on this every day. Sit near a bright window and reflect on this, on mellow and flower-filled days. Sit in a plain building and remember it on a solitary rainy evening. Why does the passage of time steal your endeavor? What kind of enemy is the passage of time? How regrettable to waste your time because of distractions. If you do not know yourself, you will not be able to be your own ally in this great undertaking."

I'm sorry. A lot of this post just reads like a bunch of nonsense, especially this line: "It's a question of attention, awareness, reality & virtuality, mental health beyond the crude categories of psychiatry, desire, comfort, sacrifice, renunciation, virtue..."

I'm sorry, what exactly is "crude" about the concepts of desire, comfort, sacrifice, renunciation, and virtue? Also why is psychiatry slipped in there. That is a discipline, rather than an abstract concept.

As far as Zen and any type of Buddhism goes, if you're worried and anxious all of the time, or flying off the handle at simple things, you could probably benefit some from meditation. But as far as a way of life, it makes a lot more sense to me to try and fix the bullshit that makes modern life unpleasant and alienating, rather than checking out of the whole process.

The human mind is an amazing thing. It can adapt to many different ways of life and find happiness in them. Though i'd much rather spend my life having experiences, connecting with people, and trying to change the world for the better, than spend most of my time doing absolutely nothing.

Is Zen Buddhism more of a philosophy than a religion? Or is it a way of living?

"Philosophy" sounds too much like just a set of ideas. "Religion" sounds too much like just a set of beliefs and rituals. "Way of living" sounds too easy and fuzzy! But Zen does incorporate elements of all those things.

Zen is a tradition that is firmly based on the practice of meditation (zazen) as a way to gain insight into fundamental aspects of awareness and let go of clinging to concepts and self. This sounds very abstract, which is why Zen teachers sometimes prefer to express themselves very concretely, like in this story:

A monk told Joshu: `I have just entered the monastery. Please teach me.'

Joshu asked: `Have you eaten your rice porridge?'

The monk replied: `I have eaten.'

Joshu said: `Then you had better wash your bowl.'

It's hard to talk about all of Zen at once --- though I guess any one word is sufficient, even silence says everything, or just snapping one's fingers --- so I think it's better to just look at basic zazen instructions and start practicing, because nothing makes sense until you taste that.

If you look at the formal aspects of Zen practice --- the rigorous monastery schedules, etc --- it can seem like a very stiff and rigid religion. And in one sense it is. But from the inside, this strictness is just a helpful way of intensifying.

Feel free to ask if there's anything you're curious about, I might be able to answer, though I'm really a beginner.

I have heard the same story told by Alan Watts, though his telling made it easier for a n00b like myself to understand the point of it.

In Watts' telling, the monk was at the monastery for quite some time, expecting that eventually someone would pull him aside and tell hike what to do.

After months, he grew impatient and told the head master "I have been here some time, yet I have not been given instruction".

The headmaster asks if he has had breakfast, and when the monk replies in the affirmative, he is instructed to "go wash your bowl".

For me, what the headmaster was saying was "if your expectation is that I'm going to lay out enlightenment in 5 easy steps for you, then you misunderstand zen. It is a mistake to be in the mindset of waiting for me to tell you what to do."

I'm interested to hear your take-away of that story.

I like that interpretation. These Zen stories always have many layers, I think, but for me, it's very resonant just as a simple story. Saying something like: don't go looking for mystical, sophisticated stuff when the proper thing to do is just to wash your breakfast bowl. A child might hear the story just like that: oh yeah, if I've had breakfast I should wash my bowl. But we're conditioned to make everything complicated.

Then I've also heard a more symbolic interpretation where Joshu is actually really asking about whether the monk has had some taste of enlightenment, and washing one's bowl here means getting rid of residues like pride.

Wonderful! I love the way Zen stories and koans invite so many interpretations.

As a casual Zen enthusiast, I have enjoyed two audio books from iTunes, which other newcomers may also enjoy:

* Zen Buddhism Stories (Trout Lake Media): This is a reading of many Zen stories similar to the one above about the monk being told to wash his bowl. Its great for light-heartedly pushing your mind in an unfamiliar direction. Many of the stories at first lie just outside your understanding, and invite you to ponder them a while longer. I listened to this audio book several times while driving the Pacific Coast Highway on a Californian road trip, which was a wonderful experience. Drive, listen, pull over, watch the waves, smell the sea, ponder, repeat.

* The Iron Flute: Zen Koans (Nyogen Senzaki): This is a much drier, academic coverage of Zen Koans. Koans are read and followed by commentary. Many of these are still very opaque to me (the koans are often a mystery, and the commentary only makes me realize they are even more complex than I had first thought). More challenging, but still interesting.

I've been encouraged by others in my zendo to focus more on practicing Zen (sitting zazen) than reading about Zen, but I must admit, reading about it is great fun :)

Questions like this can only be answered by asking what the consequences of the categorization is. Does saying "religion" make it worth dismissing? Does it make it a rival to Christian thought? Does saying "philosophy" mean that it has no consequent prescriptions for living?

Categorization for its own sake is definitively useless. If you want to compare Heraclitus to Joshu, go for it. Alternately, if you want to compare Pirsig with Aquinas or Kant, fine. If you want to figure out how to live, there's not much point to asking, "Is it a religion?" or "Is it a philosophy?": the salient point is rather whether or not there's anything worth enacting in your life.

Probably part of the question you are asking is "is there a deity in zen?", to which the answer is no.

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