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Comment by system2 | Hacker News Reader

What can they do if Starlink doesn't obey them? Shoot them down with rockets?

Let's take China for instance. They can prosecute the the customers, interfere with the communications, prevent the building of or seize the ground stations (eventually the laser links could get around that), can blow the satelites up with missiles (though that is not likely), and in general prevent any future authorized business that Starlink might want to do.

If I were in charge, I'd try to get licensed and be able to collect money from customers there.

Even India forbids sat phones except Inmarsat which they can monitor. But that's only one of the many networks. You can get in real trouble with one.

I wonder what will happen now that every phone will become a sat phone.

Same as with drones - vendors will geofence them

> I wonder what will happen now that every phone will become a sat phone.

Governments that don't want that will disallow the sale of such phones inside their country unless the manufacturer disables the satellite features for customers there.

Sure, some will get through via illegal imports, but largely this will be effective.

Until someone 'accidentally' releases update that enables feature and now you have a critical mass that you can't enforce laws on..?

Can’t enforce laws? Nerds will look for any opening for a techno-anarchist utopia. Most people are going to give up their phone when even remotely threatened. Before things even get to that point, there are lots of other levers to pull to stop people from getting access to an (esp. paid) service.

You know how 911 works without a valid cell plan?

Hypothetically, in the event of a war or similar unrest, the US could use satellite cell 'towers' to give an entire country limited connectivity with old devices people have stashed away in some drawer or closet without otherwise active cell plans, which are therefore off the local government's radar. People could be coerced to turn over the phones the government knows about but still retain some connectivity.

Speeding is illegal yet most people do it because it’s impossible to enforce. There are (and aren’t) tons of laws that are like that.

That's what they did up to now but that doesn't work anymore. Starlink direct to cell works with any unmodified smartphone. They can't ban all of those and throw their country back 20 years :)

I'll believe it when I see it.

Never underestimate the violent stupidity a government will employ in pursuit of retaining its power.

most governments like this are technically incompetent and will be unable to prevent.

The difference with these new satellite systems (if they can deliver what they promise) is that every phone sold within the past few years is essentially compatible.

At that point, you could only request that phone manufacturers retroactively provide firmware updates that ban these networks, or maybe make it hard to get SIMs allowed to connect to them (but then there's eSIMs too).

I think in practice we'll see a combination of these countries applying legal/economical pressure on the operators and jamming, with larger/less isolated countries leaning on the former, and the others on the latter.

Huh? Any particular reason why?

They say it's for terrorism reasons. They consider them a 'threat to national security': https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-satellite-phones-in-de...

Also: https://travel.stackexchange.com/questions/64974/why-are-sat...

Because religiously motivated totalitarianism is a bad form of government.

- "Even India"

India routinely does total communications blackouts, so the satellite phone ban is unsurprising, in that context.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20701204 ("India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access")

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10126931 ("India turned off mobile internet for 63M citizens amid protests in Ahmedabad")

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25972620 ("India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%932021_Jammu_and_Ka... ("2019–2021 Jammu and Kashmir lockdown")

If you don't have enough things to worry about: the US has exactly the same legal powers—in fact they're national security powers the President can invoke unilaterally,

https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/22/representatives-propose-bi... ("Representatives propose bill limiting presidential internet ‘kill switch’")

> If you don't have enough things to worry about: the US has exactly the same legal powers—in fact they're national security powers the President can invoke unilaterally,

I'm not in the US so I don't worry about that. But the US doesn't seem to actually use it as India does.

And besides I have other communications options if that would happen.

Theoretically speaking, could you use high power lasers to overheat the satellites to the point that they break and permanently stop working?

I've had this idea on my mind for quite a while now, because some time ago I heard something about Starlink painting their satellites black, which reminded me of the "it's hotter in a black car" thing.

There is a known threat in using lasers to damage the solar cells which would lead to the batteries fully discharging and the satellite becoming useless for lack of electrical power.

They can make SpaceX life hell through the ITU. Eventually SpaceX can only operate if they get the licences to operate, and if they bypass this, they would show that they have a disregard of RF regulations and this will be used against them the next time they need to get/renew a licence.

I wonder if SpaceX has enough clout to influence the ITU decisions somehow, through political lobbying, for example?

Maybe in the eyes of an Elon Musk fetishist. Realistically, no.

The USG does

Make the sales of Tesla hard to impossible, make the sales of minerals for Tesla cars hard to impossible.

That's usually how governments control businesspeople.

If only the government could control the companies like 3M and the people behind it, that have been releasing toxic chemicals into the environment and killing people. How can these companies get away with murder while paying (relative) pocket change for their crimes?

(https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/07/1...

https://conservancy.umn.edu/handle/11299/171701

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/toxic-secrets-the...)

You mean the government requiring militaries train with too much pfas (for missile explosion control) and no effort towards mitigation decades before the technology existed to even detect the presence of trace amounts (due to pfas being a ww2 classified technology)?

Sounds like standard live and learn tech development, like nuclear.

There is corruption in every country.

Ok, please tell us about the corruption in Norway and New Zealand? Please provide specific examples.

How about making satellite phones illegal and then put anyone with one in prison. Allows them to arbitrarily put opponents in prison.

Not just china, but certain parts of india, e.g. Ladakh, also ban satellite phones (and yes, will jail you if found with one).

These new systems work with any standard 5G phone

“All authorised phones must have this feature disabled”

Like the US does with Beidou GNSS receivers. Know how pretty much every flagship phone advertises support for it? Can't use in the US, blocked by geofence set at firmware level. Take the device outside of the geofence and it'll see them.

Really? Why? What's the problem with using multiple GNSS constellations? They're receive-only. My phone definitely supports GLONASS but I hadn't checked Beidou.

(sorry for late response, maybe you'll still catch it) There's not a technical problem using multiple GNSS constellations. Officially the US had some treaty with Russia to allow use of GLONASS as a second constellation. Later on Galileo became the next constellation approved through a civil route, not a treaty.

China's BeiDou would have to probably be approved through a treaty since it's run by their military, it's not going to happen. I've been told by someone who used to work at space force that beidou can be used to track users, but that's bullshit with how our receivers use it. Here's a US gov report on the matter, if it's receive only (no messaging component) tracking isn't going to happen https://www.uscc.gov/sites/default/files/Research/Staff%20Re...

Finally, the way at least Qualcomm receivers work is they will only lock to GPS first and then mix in the other constellations (at least while in CONUS).

Thank you for the response anyway! I do review my comments every so often to catch these. How do you know so much about GPS and how can I learn more? :)

Also, is there any hope for "authenticated GPS" to prevent spoofing? Is that even technically possible for non-secret codes like C/A or L5?

It's not a feature, though. It looks like a regular old 4G/5G network to the phone.

I could see such a regulation be implemented for new phones (Apple's Globalstar functionality is already deactivated in software based on geolocation in non-supported countries and maybe even in hardware for models sold in some regions), but it won't help with existing devices.

Another avenue would be restricting access to SIMs capable of logging on to these networks. SIMs have supported mutual authentication since (I believe) 3G, so it's not possible for a satellite 4G service to provide "unilateral roaming".

Yes you are right actually, prohibition would need to be done at the SIM. Contraband much harder to detect.

But if you are going to go this far, then you can just put anyone in prison for any reason anyway.

An advantage to a law which is widely flauted is that it gives arbitrary pretext to apprehend or detain any given person.

Those who are, at least for now, within good graces are of course exempted. Those who are systematically repressed can be systematically, specifically, and/or arbitrarily detained, investigated, and/or prosecuted, as suits political needs.

And the fact that the actions are based on at least nominal basis in law and procedure means that the practice is defensible both to those tasked with enacting it and with the institutions and general public. Even tyrants find that power is best and most readily exerted through cooperating and existing channels.

> An advantage to a law which is widely flauted is that it gives arbitrary pretext to apprehend or detain any given person.

A prime example: On a highway leading from Chechnya to Dagestan there is a traffic light. It is always red. https://en.rattibha.com/thread/1595456040677556226

That is an excellent example of a terrifying instance, thanks!

China, Russia and India have successfully tested anti-satellite weapons. Considering that Iran and North Korea have recently been able to acquire some pretty advanced Russian missiles, it might not be that hard for other countries to obtain them.

Beat/imprison/murder/'re-educate' anyone who is found to be in possession of the dish?

That said the only people who will be able to afford the dish and service will likely be people who are in bed with the government or vise-versa...

This is about phones

Make it socially unacceptable for anyone to use foreign electronics and scan the RF spectrum for unathorized devices.

It's not that hard if you're really committed and can accept chasing up offenders after-the-fact.

Jamming or triangulate the phones? Also yes, anti satellite weapons.

Or physically targeting the base stations or people who possess them.

Threaten to ban Tesla from selling cars in their country? :)

Tesla has a brand, technology, energy storage and cost MOAT over other EV companies.

Countries that consider banning Tesla due to Starlink, would be effectively holding back their EV market.

I am not sure that is so relevant everywhere. I think I have read about Tesla having problems staying competitive in the Chinese EV market, for example.

They’re MOAT isn’t incredibly effective in China.

But it is effective in most other countries where they operate

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