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Comment by izacus | Hacker News Reader

It does not. eSIM isn't made to help you, it's made to give control back to carrier and them money.

The opposite: eSIM allows IoT devices being moved from one operator to another remotely, with no physical SIM swap. With device using physical SIM this wouldn't be economical, with eSIM remote change it can be. This allows long term users (meters, industrial connectivity, ...) not to be tied to a single MNO. They can regularly renegotiate their contract, and use competition. And the telcos really hate this, and tried to delay this happening as much as they could. Still in the end users and device makers managed to push this through the telcos throat.

The eSIM standard for embedded/internet-of-shit use is vastly different to the eSIM standard for phones and consumers. The devices could have their own standard, but as a consumer, I prefer my small metal and plastic square, thankyouverymuch.

I've never had any additional costs incurred due to eSIM. It's always been free and instant, where as physical SIM cards I at times have had to pay a fee to swap out and it's always been a multi day process

Well, I did. Among others, the one of my carriers demanded (still does!) physical presence in their store to transfer eSIM which is a significant cost to anyone when their phone breaks. This was not the case with a small plastic card.

I've also had actual costs being charged when eSIM provisioning failed with "error -2" or whatever during travel and then carrier support refused to do anything about it (after taking my money for the card of course).

One carrier of mine demanded I appear in a physical store to issue a new physical SIM so it's not like eSIMs created or enabled that policy.

For my experience eSIM absolutely created that policy. The same carriers pSIMs still don't require that, so I'm not sure what exactly are you arguing here? The fact that your carrier has a shitty policy it's now ok to spread it?

I'm arguing shitty carriers can make shitty policies regardless of the underlying technology. It's not like eSIMs forced them to do that policy, the carrier just decided to be shitty all on their own. eSIMs can be delivered entirely digitally, so in reality they should be even easier and have even fewer needs to ever be in person.

eSIM didn't make that policy, your carrier did.

To add insult to injury, one carrier demanded this of me, then its retail store franchisees refused to issue me a SIM unless I purchased a new device or a new line so they’d make commission!

"new SIM" and "transfer SIM" are pretty different situations.

When I transfer my subscription to a new physical SIM I am issued a new SIM card, aren't I? Or do they use used SIM cards in those situations?

I've needed to go from a full-size SIM to a mini to a micro to a nano over the years. Each time was a new physical SIM, each time was more of a "transfer" to the new SIM card.

Those situations you are describing are "new SIM".

The pretty different situation, the one izacus was complaining about, is when you take your active SIM out of one device and put it into a different device. eSIM broke this for them.

Once again, eSIM didn't break this for them, their carrier's shitty eSIM policy broke it. There's little reason why they couldn't provision it through a web page or other forms. It's practically the same thing as needing to come into the store to get a new SIM because the old phone was a different size SIM or if a SIM was broken.

Provisioning an eSIM should be as simple as logging into your carrier's app or website and clicking a button or scanning a QR code. If it's any more complicated than that, your carrier sucks and you should start the porting process immediately. They're obviously customer-hostile and aren't deserving another month's subscription.

Yes the carrier sucks but the differences between normal SIMs and eSIMs enabled them to make this policy for transfers.

The reason I originally replied is because you said "it's not like eSIMs created or enabled that policy".

Even as a single policy, it affects a lot more situations now. eSIM enabled a big expansion of scope. And "different size SIM or if a SIM was broken" is significantly rarer than changing phones.

Is this a worthwhile trade-off? Saving few days and a fee but losing a physical token of a SIM?

How is an eSIM any different from a normal one? I can get up to three eSIM (if memory serves well, did not check) from my carrier for free, plus up to two normal SIMs for free. And the carrier controls all of those anyway.

And additional SIMs are below 10 bucks.

A more general remarque so, I get it that sometimes companies monetize a tad too much. But then nobody is working for free, no service comes without cost for the provider and we all have to make money to pay our bills. Hence I do not get the "they are doing it onpy for money" attitude, especially on a site like HN with a considerable number of people making litteral FAANG money, money that comes exactly from these practices.

> Hence I do not get the "they are doing it onpy for money" attitude, especially on a site like HN with a considerable number of people making litteral FAANG money, money that comes exactly from these practices.

As someone who designed quite a few public systems like this, I can recognize one that's built with users in mind and one that's built with profiteering in mind.

There's no reason for eSIM to not be easily transferrable between devices like pSIMs are. There's no reason that the QR codes with provisioning tokens can't be reusable and revokable like pSIM ones. There's no reason that eSIM provisioning servers work on whitelist principle where they deny all phones the carrier doesn't profit from.

And yet now we have all that. And before (at least here in Europe, I'm aware that US citizens are very used and defensive about abusive business practices by their telecoms) we didn't.

> There's no reason for eSIM to not be easily transferrable between devices like pSIMs are.

Indeed there is none:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780

> Use eSIM Quick Transfer on iPhone

> Some carriers support SIM transfers from your previous iPhone to your new iPhone without needing to contact them. You can also convert your current physical SIM card to an eSIM.

The whole page is full of what eSIM can do, but it seems carriers are not too happy about that as many block things that should be outright possible.

There are tons of weird things that are impossible just because carriers, e.g I have a phone that can do eSIM or pSIM, I have a tablet that can do mobile, eSIM or pSIM. I have a nice data plan for the phone, and it is eligible to share it with a watch and/or a tablet. Such a hypothetical watch that I don't own would be eSIM, and be able to share the data plan but somehow the exact same case for the tablet can only be done via pSIM, neither can I convert its pSIM to an eSIM, which is allowed for the phone. It makes no sense.

> There's no reason that eSIM provisioning servers work on whitelist principle where they deny all phones the carrier doesn't profit from.

AT&T already has a whitelist based on IMEI that works for pSIM too. https://redd.it/trfw5r

What did you try to say with that statement?

> considerable number of people making litteral FAANG money

As always, be careful not to confuse the sample with the distribution. The commenter you are replying to is not necessarily one of those people. Also, their statement might be matter-of-fact, not a condemnation.

> Hence I do not get the "they are doing it onpy for money" attitude, especially on a site like HN

I didn't read it as "they're doing it only for money". That indeed is perfectly understandable. I read GP as saying, they're being customer-abusive asshats.

We all need to make money to pay our bills and such, however there's a subtle but important difference between selling some good/service/labor in exchange for money, and abusing the customer to extract money from them. eSIM, per GP, is designed very much for the latter case.

Transferring eSIMs between the carriers requires their cooperation. They have to 'approve' the transfer and can drag their feet, create artificial obstacles along the way or simply refuse the transfer. Meanwhile moving traditional SIMs between phones just works

Don't many phone providers sell locked/branded phones that can only be used with their physical sims? This locking down has always existed, long before smartphones, and it's the reason I only buy phones direct from manufacturers.

I've had carriers block physical sim swaps. Some even charge for it.

esim allows me to provision my phone with a new phone number wherever I am.

I don't even need to go to any location, I just need someone to send me a QR code.

It is extremely helpful and a huge time saver.

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