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Comment by RomanPushkin | Hacker News Reader

I wish they deliver good keyboard as well, like Thinkpads X201 or similar have. I am happy owner of modded X201 with updated screen, motherboard, and so on. It's not on a cheap side, but I'm happy to pay that price _only_ for the keyboard option. It's so cool. Folks back then knew what was important.

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It is unlikely, but I really hope they get an ortholinear keyboard option at some point. There is this thread[1] which has gotten my hopes up.

[1] https://community.frame.work/t/ortholinear-keyboard-option/3...

Hopefully not just a simple square grid, but something designed for ergonomics. You don't need to invent a new layout, there's plenty of pretty good designs you can copy, like Corne or Atreus. But at this point I'd take anything - even a narrower space bar (so that you can use your thumbs for modifiers without contorting them) would be a huge improvement.

Even just looking at staggered keyboards hurts my hands.

There's a surprisingly large cohort that believes a matrix layout is ergonomic—as in, "I have an ergonomic keyboard". From my personal use, it's a wash at best—some keys are easier to reach, and others are harder. The worst part is the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard, and ulnar deviation is a major contributor to RSI. (A split matrix-style keyboard would negate the ulnar deviation concerns.)

The Atreus layout, while not a personal favorite (way too much chording, which I found unpleasant and uncomfortable), would seem to be pretty ideal on a laptop, though it does take up a good chunk of space.

> From my personal use, it's a wash at best—some keys are easier to reach, and others are harder

I agree.

> the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard

Hard disagree. You may choose to hold your wrists in such a manner that this is true, but that's on you.

I'm a touch typist, and I switched to ortho partly because it makes a lot more sense for touch typing. Touch typing is taught in columns, and when those columns are slanted like this \ there really is no justification. So ortho lets me scratch that itch to fix the keyboard.

There will probably never make one. I'd be surprised if even % of laptop users even know what an ortholinear layout is. You have a better chance of an aftermarket one.

I hope with the new modular keyboard tray we will get some decent option. I would only buy it if there was one with a track point tbh, third party or otherwise.

I’ve been hopeful for more keyboard options on Frameworks too. Ideally I’d like HHKB layout with trackpoint and accompanying trackpad module with three buttons at the top, but would be happy with only HHKB layout or only trackpoint.

Certainly the colorful led backlight must have been the highest priority.

I dream of having a laptop with a standard tenkeyless layout. If I end up buying a Framework at some point I might build my own TKL keyboard, or pay handsomely to have one custom-built, such is my burning desire to keep my existing muscle-memory.

Yeah I’m not a fan of the numpad on laptops. If im doing serious data entry I’ll get out a numpad (Keychron C1) or a full keyboard. And it actively reduces the space for the rest of the KB layout, speakers, etc.

But as you say, the cool part about framework is that everyone can customize it to their own tastes.

I never used a laptop keyboard that I liked (I currently have a thinkpad)... probably because I'm used to these old style IBM keyboards with numeric keypad

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UJ8OXnZjL._AC_SL1500_....

to me, it would make a lot more sense to replace the lines of numbers on top of the keyboard with the numeric keypad (instead of getting rid of it)... it is so much easier to type numbers with it....

they used to be so much better. I typed on a friend's ancient powerbook and the keyboard made a lasting impression on me. I found the sculpted keys to be smooth and comfortable. This was when flat keys were first coming out.

I think this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Wallstre...

I personally never experienced a keyboard as comfortable as my fw13. I am coming from XPS ones and never tried ThinkPads, thought.

The LTT video says that the 16-inch Framework has a much worse keyboard than the 13-inch one.

The physical key mechanism is the same as on the Framework Laptop 13 (the same tooling too). The LTT video noted that they found flex in the mid plate that the keyboard rests on, which we are investigating.

Do you know what is the travel on the 13 and 16 Framework keyboards?

1.5mm key travel.

Does a current-gen laptop featuring an X201-like keyboard exist? Has such a thing even existed in the last five years?

Lenovo continues to reduce key travel in favor of the more popular thin and light crowd.

case in point : my 2020 Lenovo Ideapad keyboard looks like this:

https://demo.intellique.org/nextcloud/index.php/s/6jJ3r4brrj...

Yes, through enthusiasts from China. They make their own motherboards and install modern components. There is no warranty though, and you need to wire them funds, there is also no returns. It worked for me though. I have 64GB ram, 2 SSDs 1TB each. It's mostly silent after I configured things in BIOS. The battery life still sucks.

Apart from the 51nb stuff from China (https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ and the like), the ThinkPad 25 is the closest official thing, but it's over 6 years old now (released in October 2017, but mine's still going strong and I haven't even replaced the batteries yet).

> ...modded X201 with updated ... motherboard...

How far are you getting with these updates? I agree the keyboards of old are legendary, but at some point your productivity is negatively affected by legacy CPUs and related.

It really depends on how you develop.

For some people laptops never have enough power and are essentially a thin client to something else.

The X201 mods are pretty comprehensive, the 51NB team and others like XY Tech have commissioned entire replacement motherboards that carry i7-8550u or i7-10710u processors. See [1].

And the old 35W processors in some of these laptops will still deliver solid performance. The new ones will turbo higher, but throttle quicker. You get higher default clock speed and better thermals with the older processors. Of course memory bandwidth and peripheral connectivity are better with newer processors, but they're perfectly usable. If what you want to do to be productive is edit text and maybe render HTML and browse files, and your OS/IDE/browser does not place unnecessary demands on your computer, then an X201, especially modded, cannot be the blame for your lack of productivity.

https://www.xyte.ch/

> How far are you getting with these updates?

I can run Slack native app and the fan doesn't kick in!

Kidding, but I have Slack running, and containers, and IDEs. Everything. My CPU is pretty decent, 64GB RAM, 2 SSDs, 1TB each. This is modded X201 from enthusiasts from China. These laptops are somewhat niche, but you can buy them.

You will run all the software you need, and even more. The only downside is battery life, I hope we'll have new types of batteries some time soon, so it won't bother me too much.

Looks like the keyboard was decent once you put some thermal pads under the keyboard to stiffen it up lol. I like the fact that you can easily mod things yourself though.

I would love something like that. Something with curved keys that fit the contour of your finger instead of the "everybody-copy-apple" flat key nonsense.

Curved keys are more comfortable, putting even pressure on your finger instead of high pressure in one place.

They also give tactile feedback to help center your finger on each key, making typing more accurate and faster.

Yeah... I'd want a full height mechanical keyboard myself.

The current offering is missing International English ISO - Linux variant for me.

It would never happen, but I'd like to have a no-keyboard option. I never use my laptop keyboard because I have an HHKB, rendering it unnecessary. Instead of a keyboard, I'd like a flat surface where I can rest my HHKB and maybe an L-shaped connector to plug in the USB-C.

Sounds like you want Framework to release a mini pc

I like the form factor of a laptop though, plus the touchpad. The only superfluous part is the built-in keyboard. I already have a keyboard (an HHKB).

I wish that portable form factor like the dolch pc would come back.

monitor part of the case with a fold out detachable keyboard.

this is a terrible example of what I mean:

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/PRO...

but imagine something like that with a more modern take.

EDIT: ok here it is:

http://portexa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FlexPAC-III-23...

look up "flexpac iii"

I have not used a Windows laptop outside of Razer and maybe Surface in many years.

How do those Thinkpad keyboards compare to new Macbook Pro keyboards?

I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience.

> I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," [...]

Have you tried the previous, "butterfly" generation? It should've been criminal to ship that.

Personally, I think the butterfly keyboard is great. Assuming, of course, that you got one that does not suffer mechanical reliability issues. This opinion is hardly universal but seems to be shared by quite a few good typists. I'm typing this on a fancy mechanical keyboard, because I care quite a bit about keyboard quality (and consequently hate most laptop keyboards). So it's not that I just don't know better.

I have and I think it's fine. The newer ones are better, but I never understood the enormous dislike for it. IMO the pre-butterfly keyboard is still better than even the current iteration.

> Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience

Yes, you are missing a better experience. You might try out Bluetooth X201-like keyboards built by enthusiasts from China, if you can buy them. I tried to contact with no luck though.

But it can be a good DYI project, if you have one for sale, let me know.

Here is the link https://www.taobao.com/list/item/615448425938.htm

They 3D-print the body, and use keyboards from Thinkpad laptops.

> I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine,"

I haven't bought a (non-phone) computer made by Apple since, and due to, the MBP 2017 keyboard fiasco. It was the single most shitty and unusable keyboard I have had a displeasure working on, and I've owned some super cheap entry laptops in the past.

To say that it was crap, trash, garbage, joke, spit in consumer's face feels like a laughably low effort on expressing how useless it was. I bought this laptop as a pre-order before general availability and reported issues to Apple before all the media shitstorm began. Support reps have expressed their concerns and assured me over the phone that it has to be an isolated problem with an individual unit. I've sent the laptop for servicing within a 2 weeks since purchase. They replaced the keyboard and, for some reason, also the mainboard and screen and sent it back. Exact same issues but before I got the mostly-replaced device, issues with the butterfly keyboard already caught media attention and it was a hot topic.

I was traveling with a laptop and a mechanical Keychron keyboard, ffs. I used external keyboard during flights, at Starbucks and in other public places. Any attempt to use built-in butterfly joke of a keyboard was so frustrating that carrying an external keyboard was a reasonable trade-off.

Apple later parted ways with $50 million to settle the class-action. US-based buyers got up to $395 (I got nothing in EU) but still ended up with non-resellable devices. Jony Ive probably got a great bonus for this stunt.

I'm happy for you that you have experienced only "fine" keyboards on MBPs. Would I have enemies, I wouldn't wish the misfortune of having to use MBP 2017 on any of them.

How long does your battery last?

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