Framework Laptop 16 Review
phoronix.com
phoronix.com
My only negative with it has been the issue specific to 11th gens where the CMOS drains and eventually dies if the laptop is left unplugged for days-to-weeks at a time.
On the whole Framework handled the issue well, there was no permanent fix without soldering or replacing the board. The company was upfront, provided support, a replacement battery, and even published a how-to on modifying the mainboard after the fact. With a start-up I was expecting some bugs. This one was irritating but not a deal breaker. I think how they handled the problem and how they've proven their commitment to upgradeability through the 12th, 13th, and Ryzen boards speaks well of the company.
While I am extremely keen on the AMD versions that have rolled out recently, I can't justify the purchase when my current FW13 still works well enough.
The FW16 probably isn't for me but I hope it's successful. I really want to see the docking station that can double as an eGPU using the FW16 discrete GPU module. There was a prototype mentioned in passing about a year ago but it's been radio silence since then. I hope the success of Framework laptops and the growing market for gaming handhelds like the Steam Deck makes the modular eGPU concept a little more reasonable. It's still incredibly niche but one can dream.
IMHO, handling it well would mean recalling and replacing the defective mainboards (so long as they’re in warranty). They must have a ton of brand equity / good will if customers are that willing to roll up their sleeves.
Just remember, this flaw was on the one model right at the start of the company. Recalling the boards at that point (where the company probably wasn't making a profit yet) could have killed the company. Definitely not worth doing.
But short of a total recall, they did the next best thing. They released detailed instructions on how to repair a laptop while having the schematics for the laptop be open, and going out of their way to design the laptop in such a way to make repair as easy as possible, and said that self repairs would not affect any warrantees.
No other laptop manufacturer would have done that.
That's why they are seen as good in the community's eyes.
> No other laptop manufacturer would have done that. > That's why they are seen as good in the community's eyes.
Yep.
We're not aiming for _perfect_ here. Framework just has to be better than the abysmally low bar set by (almost) every other laptop maker.
Which was fine at the time, but would have preferred to just RMA the unit so I would have a working unit (we purchased to test for business use).
Yes! As another owner of the FW13, if they released some kind of external adapter for the FW16 GPU I'd definitely purchase the GPU and the adapter the day its open for sale.
Unsure how viable that would be, but it would help justify that proof of concept (imho).
Would be really cool if the GPU could serve multiple devices across generations like that somehow, eventually. Buy one FW laptop, upgrade it, use the old parts for a new handheld, use the old GPU as a dock for that handheld when you get a new one for the laptop.
My 12th gen has issues with abysmal battery life while sleeping (not just the regular Intel 12th gen sleep complaints, but batt life varies greatly depending on which expansion cards you have on the laptop while sleeping eg USB-A vs -C). Framework has been beta testing a FW update to partially improve this since 2022 and last I checked the beta still had side effects like bricking the left USB-C ports under certain conditions.
Even though Fedora is (afaict?) the best supposed Linux distro, there's still known issues that have persisted for years like the brightness keys not working (there's technically a workaround but it breaks a different feature that I would like to use)
If the laptop as it is today meets your needs, go for it... but one shouldn't buy it assuming that known issues will be fixed later on.
As someone who had a 12th-gen mainboard and upgraded to an AMD board, and assuming you meant "supported" here, the rest of the points here are fine but this one rather explicitly is off. Ubuntu is the primary supported distro across the board: https://frame.work/linux
Fedora was recommended for AMD mainboards when Framework started shipping them, because Fedora ships newer kernels sooner, which got upstream AMD compatibility fixes out faster, which meant Fedora users could install Framework's firmware, driver, and BIOS updates sooner with fewer workarounds.
When Ubuntu 22.04.3 LTS shipped a 6.2 kernel in August, it went back in front across mainboards.
I did switch from the glossy to matte display, which was a massive improvement for use on the go.
To be perfectly honest, I don't really know how much battery I would lose - the laptop is rarely untouched for more than a day or so and in the rare situations when it has been, it has been either completely powered off or left plugged in. I don't know if it's ever been in a situation where it was left in a sleep-state for multiple days.
It can take 10-20 seconds to boot up but battery drain while not is use has dropped to maybe 2% for any extended periods of non-use. As an 11th gen user, it exacerbates the CMOS problem I mentioned earlier but that hopefully shouldn't be an issue with the 12th gen mainboards.
This is a guide I've seen recommended: https://community.frame.work/t/guide-fedora-36-hibernation-w...
Hope that helps.
After two years of sporadic use, our engineer with Fedora+Framework gave it up as it started burning him (2nd degree)!
Overall, I liked the experience and the mission, but was sad we've had the experience of glitch+burning.
I want the 16 for more screen real-estate and better gaming; I've had family notice my laptop and make positive comments, so I may pass it on when I eventually upgrade.
On a related note, I saw someone else with a Framework laptop at a coffee shop the other day here in Alaska - super cool! First time I've seen another Framework user :)
720p and games that are 12+ years old or are deliberately low poly. That's not the most ringing of endorsements.
When can we expect Framework to start accepting orders from India?
Is it possible to remove the trackpad?
Image: https://static.frame.work/6jh6n0jcad25finrrmx9kmv48eex
This keyboard config uses the super key.
I want sturdiness, correct performance, good repairability, great linux support. Tout le reste n'est que littérature.
EDIT: Oh I missed the smiley at the end. So I think you were not too serious about this being a dealbreaker
13" is a great size for a truly portable use case.
I find a 'standard' 13" (as on an older Macbook Air, for example, which I think is technically 13.3" and 16:10?) a bit too claustrophobic for anything creative - either due to apps needing toolbars, or my workflow needing multiple windows accessible (e.g. coding, with VSCode, a shell or two, and a browser for docs and StackOverflow).
A 15" (which I have now) is nice to work with, but then the laptop becomes a touch too heavy for travelling comfort (unless this is something you specifically optimise for when buying e.g. [0] - but then there are other tradeoffs).
Thus I wonder if a 14-14.5" with minimal bezels, set in a lightweight chassis similar to a traditional 13" (see how big the bezels are on an older Macbook Air, for example - lots of space for a larger screen without unduly enlarging the chassis) might not be a sweet spot?
With the greatest respect it's 2024, a laptop should be capable of 8 hours at the very minimum for a mid range model but I'm seeing a lot of people getting sub 2 hours.
The 16 ticks all the boxes for me but I've held off for now as having the possibility of worse battery life than my old 2015 mac isn't as you can imagine making for a compelling upgrade.
For Linux, when following our installation guides for power optimization, power consumption with integrated graphics should be similar.
Edit: Tom's Hardware similarly reports 9 hours on Windows (with Graphics Module installed): https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/framework-laptop-16-rev....
I'm in the same boat, looking for as light as possible with a much battery as possible, was banking on the 16 yet we get 9 hours instead of (an assumed) ~10-11, and 2.1/2.4kg.
Somehow the Thinkpad Extreme X1 and the new Zephyrus G16 have similar CPUs, dGPUs, a >90Whr battery and they weigh less than 2kg.
Where's most the weight going? Will I be able to buy a FW 16 and eliminate weight to achieve similar specs? Literally asking about using a "stripped down version".
If you want the lightest laptop with the longest battery life, you'd get a Mac. If you want the best bang for your buck go with a basic Ultrabook. If your willing to have a bit more weight, size and a bit less battery in exchange for repairability/customization, that's the niche framework fits well.
As a result, its beginning to resemble a paperweight.
Edit: I'm running linux. I don't recall doing any battery optimization but maybe I installed or configured something a few years ago? I don't change things often.
Another edit: I just checked and I do have TLP installed!
It's also a trade off against competence, because you can kill the battery right quick if drivers don't idle things properly, but even after you address that you still have the other thing.
Which makes 16+ hour battery life an odd choice for most people. Who uses their laptop for 16 contiguous hours with no opportunity to charge? It could have been lighter or faster.
Naturally Framework has the potential to make it flexible: Have a dual-use bay where one of the options is a second battery, and then if you want it you take the weight/battery life trade off in favor of battery life, and if not the machine can be lighter.
Also generally speaking more efficient laptops are cooler which is generally a quality welcome in a device sometimes used in a person’s lap.
Sure, it's the bulk of a Macbook Air, but I often leave that open, with the screen on, running VMs for work all day without it being plugged in. I expect that any time I open it, I'll have at least 30-60 minutes of use before I need to plug it in. My Framework, more often than not, tells me it's about to emergency shut down as soon as I log in.
Did you report this issue to Framework? Do other users have similar issues?
This is just the same trade off. For a given level of efficiency you could have put in a smaller battery and offset the weight of a second battery / charging brick that you would then only need when you need many hours of battery life.
> Also generally speaking more efficient laptops are cooler which is generally a quality welcome in a device sometimes used in a person’s lap.
That isn't really part of the trade off either. The faster ones generally don't have worse performance per watt -- they're often better because they have more cores with lower clock speeds. You get 100% more cores with 75% more performance for 50% more power consumption. For the same load they generate less heat. See also "race to idle".
They only generate more heat in absolute terms if you put more load on them than the slower alternative would have been able to handle.
The weight isnt the problem. It's the poor optimisation of hardware and software.
Given LTT's review of the laptop, it may be best to wait for the 2nd revision of this which hopefully will deal with the deck flex and screen consistency issues.
Macbooks are the only device I would trust to not light a bag on fire…
It’s excellent in that I can suspend any software and have it come back to life exactly the way I expect (no small feat!) and it’s excellent that it never cooks itself when unattended in a case or bag, but it is total trash that it eats 20-30% battery a day while “off”. That’s not a bug, but expected behavior. It’s just not what I have come to expect from a modern computer, and portable Macs haven’t behaved that way since about 2005.
However, my (5+ yrs old?) T480s running linuxmint never does it (i5-8250u). YMMV
discussion: https://community.frame.work/t/simple-extra-battery-for-the-...
Previous generation Macbook running the same workload last for 6+ hours.
That said, for someone who isn't going to be running every core at 100% all the time, I'd still recommend it.
Edit: Oh, and under arch with the latest kernel, I find many monitors that cannot display video output over usb-c, like the Dell U4919DW.
If you have processes pegging CPUs at 100% and you don't want them to, then use a cgroup to limit their CPU time.
You do understand that different machines can do the same calculations with different amounts of energy, right?
Still, if your dev environment is using CPU constantly you're likely doing something inefficiently. Redis and postgres don't do much unless you ask them to, for example.
I now make sure to save my work and shut the laptop off completely at the end of a session.
https://community.frame.work/t/request-review-of-korean-belg...
(am not even Japanese, just have bad habit of using thumb clusters a lot, and this is the only layout with small space bar)
Same, the 106/109 keys JP layout is wonderful!
I use the Ro key as a quick desktop toggle (right next to PageUp on my Thinkpad keyboard) and the Yen key as a full-word erase (like Ctrl-W on bash)
The extra left and right thumbs are also extrely helpful to have Home and End in an easy-to reach position.
Another example I can think about: remap the Ro key to toggle between international layout while it's pressed, so you can switch between layouts with a key right next to the shift key.
For example, on a US/RU settting, press Ro while pressing the 6 keys to the right of Tab in a sequence and you would get ЙЦУКЕН, don't press Ro and do the same: you would get QWERTY. Mixing and matching in both upper and lowercase would be very easy.
This still leaves you with the Yen and the Ro key to map for other things!
I’m holding out for an NVIDIA GPU, or at least some hardware to accelerate running local AI models. Do you have any expansion bay plans for that?
Edit: Looks like I found what I am looking for: https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/environment-varia....
Electron apps are still blurry though. Hmm... Also, seems like I need to expose something to Electron apps that are packaged in Flatpak. Needs more research.
The only way forward is bug the maintainers of the apps to do the right thing and support wayland properly. Electron itself does.
This is an area of active development that will continue to see improvement.
At these pixel sizes (except 125%), it is irrelevant. MacOS and iPhone do exactly the same for years, and nobody was ever bothered.
> along with the performance overhead.
By the increased resolution of the framebuffer; the scaling itself is done by hardware (and here I do not mean GPU; I mean output encoder).
Oh, it does. The framebuffer is integer scaled, but the physical display has different (lower) resolution. As I wrote above, this mismatch is handled by the output encoder.
> Macs are all designed to run at 200%, though you can set it to 175% or 150%.
Macs since around 2016 ship with ~175% default.
Again, the framebuffer is integer scaled (make a screenshot and see for yourself), and then fit to the display with lower resolution.
They do not support 150% or 175% though; these numbers are never shown in UI, just some description like "more space". This is not just Apple-esque hiding of everything that might sound technical; they really do not support 150% or 175%. In reality, it is more like 177,78% or 152,38%; they get something out of it, but that is a different topic.
It is exactly the same approach that Gnome / Mutter uses for fractional scaling. Except that Mutter did the mistake with exact scales.
Do you think that you will move from batches to continuous production the next few years (I understand this is difficult logistics)? If Frameworks were available with 3 day shipping, then I would be able to recommend them to people more successfully.
Also out of interest, do you mind sharing your stance (and estimates for current and future demand) for touchscreens? Presumably you're estimating low demand for this at moment since it's not a priority. Would be great to see stats on this (since at the moment it's mostly just informal discussion / passing comments in the community/forums)
Thanks in advance. Appreciate everything you've all done.
And appreciate that any expectations for <1week delivery would ignore your JIT/ondemand style assembly
Q: the pictures of this case on the CoolerMaster site looks like there's a USB-C trigger to a Coaxial power connector, then another connector to the mainboard itself. Would this case work with a 20v coaxial power supply?
Q: What voltage/wattage does the Framework SFF computer need to power up?
A lot of the USB-PD power supplies only give watts, not the voltage provided. Your 60w power supply is probably either 12v/5A or 20v/3A, but the page itself doesn't say: https://frame.work/products/power-adapter
I have some 15w USB-C 5v/3A power supplies (that won't charge my Sony camera), a USB-PD battery that supposedly puts out 12v on the one USB-C port, and an Apple 30w USB-C ac adapter. My 2016 macbook charges on 5v, which is convenient. Framework forum posts indicate the laptops will charge on 5v 12v and 20v, but there was a problem with 15v.
I didn't keep track of Framework 13s at all so I'm not sure what their shipping cadence was for pre-orders (just for comparison's sake)
I followed the prompt on the website and signed up for the newsletter, but I got so much marketing spam that was totally irrelevant to my one and only question that I had to unsubscribe.
I’ve got the money here, had it for at least two years. I just don’t have a way to give it to Framework
> All warranty service will require a shipping address within one of the EU countries we ship to.
So if I need to warranty something, I need to figure out how to have a shipping address in, say, Germany? Easy!
Oh and if the 2.5k€ laptop gets damaged by a 3rd party shipping company, I'm on the hook for it.
Yea, I'll wait. I can't figure out why it's so hard to ship stuff within the EU. The whole purpose of the European Union is to make moving products easy inside its borders.
it's not, at least not in my experience.
Tangentially, as they are doing it already, selling _to consumers_ is quite hard. Each country has different regulation placing a lot of obligations on the seller.
Such as? Just curious
That's the whole damn point of the EU.
I think there might be some regulation on having the instructions written in the native language, but that's like 100€ to a translator for an one-time job. No laptop comes with an extensive manual.
Warranty terms are EU-wide too mostly, there are some country-specific exceptions, but nothing that would require a huge legal team to handle.
From Germany: specific requirements for "impressum" on each website. Definition of all quantities in SI units.
Things get more funny if you touch any food: labelling regulations have a common EU base, but definition of what detail level is required for each element is per country, and they do differ significantly.
For everywhere: obligation to collect and report VAT for each destination country.
IIRC they are fairly consistent across the EU (simplifying cross border commerce is one of main reasons it exists)
> but I got so much marketing spam that was totally irrelevant to my one and only question that I had to unsubscribe
Make sure you don't tick the "Stay up to date with Framework newsletters" checkbox, I didn't and haven't received any marketing
I'd say "good" rather than "interesting" and yes, it is, particularly for anyone who likes dark mode.
You got an AMD option now, this is the last hurdle.
(An ergonomic and programmable keyboard ia a dream. Maybe I could mod it myself.)
But speakers should be an area of focus.
(I'm curious to know but I think I'll be getting the AMD 13 anyway, upgrading from a dualcore skylake laptop should still be nice :)
In a normal workday, I don't hear it.
How does the trackpad feel compared to what people are used to with Apple devices on MacOS, is it at all comparable? I remember that being my least favorite part of using Linux laptops like what System 76 would put out.
How's the device build? Plasticky? Flexing? Once again, I dreaded that about the System76 machines, which IIRC are just rebranded Clevos/Compals.
From the LTT review (note that Linus has personally invested in the company, but says he did not review the team's script) at timestamp[0]:
> The keyboard on the Framework 16 is unacceptable at this price [...] wasn't able to get up to my full typing speed in particular while doing really quick double presses due to the chassis flex, a huge disappointment compared to the keyboard on the Framework 13
> The problem is the midplate [..] with the keyboard off, you can just see how not supportive this super thin piece of metal is. Fortunately, this being a framework, disassembling only takes about a minute and we were able to chuck some thermal pads in the areas where it was squishiest, and.. holy crap, that is so much better.
> The amount that the chassis flex influences the feel of the keyboard is huge and the difference that this mod has made is night and day. With the thermal pads in there, this keyboard isn't quite on the same level of Asus or Alienware but comfortably beats MSI and Razor and bring it much more in-line with the price.
15" sits nicely between your 13" and 16" models, and provides a good balance between screen real estate, number of ports and portability.
Personally I find a 13" to be slightly on the smaller side, whilst the 16" is too large for me.
I am quite sure many people are looking forward to a FW 15" with AMD Ryzen.
Thank you for considering this.
I even made the simulation of upgrading to 64gb of ram just after I bought it to prove myself that it was the right choice.
I cannot think of going back to buying something I know I'll most likely have to replace entirely after some time because it cannot be upgraded.
I had doubts about the 3:2 screen ratio but although it was unfamiliar at first I quickly realized that the extra vertical space for a 13' computer !
But as you say, the cool part about framework is that everyone can customize it to their own tastes.
How do those Thinkpad keyboards compare to new Macbook Pro keyboards?
I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience.
Have you tried the previous, "butterfly" generation? It should've been criminal to ship that.
Yes, you are missing a better experience. You might try out Bluetooth X201-like keyboards built by enthusiasts from China, if you can buy them. I tried to contact with no luck though.
But it can be a good DYI project, if you have one for sale, let me know.
Here is the link https://www.taobao.com/list/item/615448425938.htm
They 3D-print the body, and use keyboards from Thinkpad laptops.
I haven't bought a (non-phone) computer made by Apple since, and due to, the MBP 2017 keyboard fiasco. It was the single most shitty and unusable keyboard I have had a displeasure working on, and I've owned some super cheap entry laptops in the past.
To say that it was crap, trash, garbage, joke, spit in consumer's face feels like a laughably low effort on expressing how useless it was. I bought this laptop as a pre-order before general availability and reported issues to Apple before all the media shitstorm began. Support reps have expressed their concerns and assured me over the phone that it has to be an isolated problem with an individual unit. I've sent the laptop for servicing within a 2 weeks since purchase. They replaced the keyboard and, for some reason, also the mainboard and screen and sent it back. Exact same issues but before I got the mostly-replaced device, issues with the butterfly keyboard already caught media attention and it was a hot topic.
I was traveling with a laptop and a mechanical Keychron keyboard, ffs. I used external keyboard during flights, at Starbucks and in other public places. Any attempt to use built-in butterfly joke of a keyboard was so frustrating that carrying an external keyboard was a reasonable trade-off.
Apple later parted ways with $50 million to settle the class-action. US-based buyers got up to $395 (I got nothing in EU) but still ended up with non-resellable devices. Jony Ive probably got a great bonus for this stunt.
I'm happy for you that you have experienced only "fine" keyboards on MBPs. Would I have enemies, I wouldn't wish the misfortune of having to use MBP 2017 on any of them.
How far are you getting with these updates? I agree the keyboards of old are legendary, but at some point your productivity is negatively affected by legacy CPUs and related.
For some people laptops never have enough power and are essentially a thin client to something else.
And the old 35W processors in some of these laptops will still deliver solid performance. The new ones will turbo higher, but throttle quicker. You get higher default clock speed and better thermals with the older processors. Of course memory bandwidth and peripheral connectivity are better with newer processors, but they're perfectly usable. If what you want to do to be productive is edit text and maybe render HTML and browse files, and your OS/IDE/browser does not place unnecessary demands on your computer, then an X201, especially modded, cannot be the blame for your lack of productivity.
I can run Slack native app and the fan doesn't kick in!
Kidding, but I have Slack running, and containers, and IDEs. Everything. My CPU is pretty decent, 64GB RAM, 2 SSDs, 1TB each. This is modded X201 from enthusiasts from China. These laptops are somewhat niche, but you can buy them.
You will run all the software you need, and even more. The only downside is battery life, I hope we'll have new types of batteries some time soon, so it won't bother me too much.
https://demo.intellique.org/nextcloud/index.php/s/6jJ3r4brrj...
The current offering is missing International English ISO - Linux variant for me.
[1] https://community.frame.work/t/ortholinear-keyboard-option/3...
Even just looking at staggered keyboards hurts my hands.
The Atreus layout, while not a personal favorite (way too much chording, which I found unpleasant and uncomfortable), would seem to be pretty ideal on a laptop, though it does take up a good chunk of space.
I agree.
> the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard
Hard disagree. You may choose to hold your wrists in such a manner that this is true, but that's on you.
I'm a touch typist, and I switched to ortho partly because it makes a lot more sense for touch typing. Touch typing is taught in columns, and when those columns are slanted like this \ there really is no justification. So ortho lets me scratch that itch to fix the keyboard.
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UJ8OXnZjL._AC_SL1500_....
I think this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Wallstre...
monitor part of the case with a fold out detachable keyboard.
this is a terrible example of what I mean:
http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/PRO...
but imagine something like that with a more modern take.
EDIT: ok here it is:
http://portexa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FlexPAC-III-23...
look up "flexpac iii"
Curved keys are more comfortable, putting even pressure on your finger instead of high pressure in one place.
They also give tactile feedback to help center your finger on each key, making typing more accurate and faster.
There hasn't been a driver or firmware update in three months.
The keyboard and trackpad are mediocre.
The fan vents are on the bottom of the computer where they're almost permanently blocked.
It's not a terrible computer, and it does have what was most important to me when I was buying (a matte 3:2 screen). But I can't recommend it to anybody.
I have the fw13 12th gen and I don't think the keyboard and trackpad are mediocre at all.
I am running the Fedora Cinnamon spin. The issue for me is that only sometimes it takes a minutes to get out of sleep after I close the lid. Apart from that it works fine, and I would recommend it.
The touchpad frequently misidentifies movement as taps, something that hasn't been a problem for me on the Macbook Pro, the X1 Carbon, or the Microsoft Surface. The keyboard keys aren't too bad, but could have a sharper inflection point in the force vs travel and also be little bit less wobbly. Neither of these are fatal flaws, but are enough, I think, to call them mediocre.
Do you also find that the computer forgets its DDR5 training pretty regularly and takes a long time to boot? For me I think it's ~1-in-10 boots.
Same for touchpad issues, my big palms sides have always been the source of misidentified clicks. The way I solved it on linux was by making it narrower in software. It take a one line straightforward command to do so.
I really like the keyboard I must say. It's much better than my previous laptops (that were admittedly cheaper)
I don't have any boot issues on my model so I don't know about a boot problem sorry
Regarding the blanket; it's cool indoors here and so blankets are a fact of life. My other laptops have no issue with this because grilles aren't on the bottom. They usually draw or exhaust from the hinge and do the opposite from the sides. Also it's called a laptop, being on a lap is an expected use-case.
Latest Fedora 39 kernel fixed a problem I had switching from graphics to a virtual terminal and back.
Another poster on here a while ago said that it took up to two years for a brand new AMD chipset to get fully supported on Linux. I remember that happening even to an old Intel Dell I had with docking station.
(Looks like this kernel param is meant to solve my problem: amdgpu.sg_display=0 rather than the updated kernel.)
Anyway if you can't get it stable, I'd call support to replace your motherboard perhaps. Shouldn't have to suffer with crashes.
It wakes from sleep and reconnects wifi before I'm done opening the lid, I can charge it from either side, the screen is beautiful, it's nice and lightweight, the performance and battery life are good enough that I don't think about it.
On the down side, the touchpad is a notable downgrade from the macbook I use for work, and the speakers are down-ish-firing and fairly weak. Also, twice in the ~1.5 months I've had it, it has completely frozen for about 30 seconds (even the mouse cursor didn't respond) before hitting a windows bluescreen and then rebooting. No idea what's causing that, but there is some suggestion on the forum that it's the AMD graphics drivers. However, I also have a GPD Win Mini with a similar APU and it's never once frozen like that on me.
I'm probably going to switch it to Ubuntu in the near future, so that might sidestep the freezing issue, although I expect it to eventually be sorted out either way.
But, again, overall I'm very happy with it.
My experience was this is only true for "s2idle" suspend but that mode causes battery drain of 30% every 8 hours which was way more than I was willing to tolerate. It's okay I guess if you're just commuting and unplugging-plugging or something. But it didn't work for me for leisure travel when I would often go 24 hours without opening my laptop.
In "deep" sleep mode (which only works with some SSDs) power drain is minimal but it takes upwards of 15 seconds to resume and reconnect to wifi. This is what I use now. I just tolerate the 15 seconds, but I wish it were as fast as a Macbook.
My SSD is a SK Hynix P41, which I believe does support the lower power states.
I previously used a Samsung 980 Pro and that did NOT work with deep sleep.
The upside is that, if/when FW offers a better screen in the future (with touch?) I feel comfortable doing the swap myself.
Maybe she'll become a gamer and we'll get a 16.
Anyway, you've got my total support and $. I get that we're a niche market though. It would be great to see my non-techie friends sporting the Framework Gear -- I think they'd love the pre-built machine, but the messaging steers them to thinking it's only for DIY-ers. E.g. -- My sister would love the FW13 because she doesn't have special performance needs and cares about sustainability, but she got very intimidated buying an MBA, so guiding her through buying a Framework will be some work on my end (...messaging that would land for her would be that Framework solves all your basic problems (browsing, video-chatting, and netflix) and when you need more power you can upgrade for only the cost of the components).
I wish I could get a 4K screen, an eInk screen, a touchscreen, a Dvorak keyboard, a OLED keyboard, an IMU/GPS/barometer expansion module, a pico projector expansion module, a software-defined-radio expansion module, a larger aperture webcam module, an IR webcam module, a depth camera webcam module, an Arduino expansion module, an IR emitter expansion module that controls TVs, etc etc etc.
But nobody seems interested in making this stuff. I guess the community that uses Framework laptops isn't really capable of that level of hardware engineering (me included) and the companies in China doing hardware haven't caught onto making stuff for Framework.
I'd love to be able to just pay for them and buy them and then get rolling with software :)
I did come up with something I would want enough that I'm willing to try to make it though. Taking inspiration from some other modules like it, I'm currently looking into adding this microcontroller with a transparent case:
https://github.com/01Space/ESP32-C3FH4-RGB
If I'm happy with it, I was going to try to have it show battery status like some other laptops have. This might be possible by wiring up another microcontroller to the SMBus on the battery. I'm still researching that part though.
For what it's worth, some places like JLCPCB can source and solder SMT components to your designed boards as long as you pick from their available parts library.
> But nobody seems interested in making this stuff. I guess the community that uses Framework laptops isn't really capable of that level of hardware engineering (me included) and the companies in China doing hardware haven't caught onto making stuff for Framework.
I relate to your sentiment of wanting tons of modules, but I'm going to disagree on the skills of the community.
For some of these options (4k/eink screens for eg), you need such a panel to be available (panelook to search -> aliexpress/ebay to buy). SDRs, IMUs & sensors could be doable relatively "easily" if they interface via USB/PCIE.
There are lots of hardware tinkerers in youtube, hackaday and of course even here on HN. I'm a mechanical engineer with some electrical/electronics knowledge, and I could likely make a half-decent module if I had the time/money/reason/ethusiasm for it. There's a guy who's turned an iPad screen into the FW13 display (on the framework community). There are probably dozens of people who may read this comment who are far more skilled than I am.
If you are very keen to do this yourself, you might want to start with learning 3d modelling and building up from that (from a mechanical side). 3d printing metals with something like SLS is commercially (relatively) easy and (imo) accessible compared to say 10-20 years back.
Aren't they available? Just take apart a used MacBook for a retina display, or take apart a Boox 13.3" tablet for the eInk display.
Or just buy this https://www.waveshare.com/13.3inch-e-paper-hat.htm
But good luck reverse engineering it. I wouldn't know where to start.
Yeah for sure, what I meant is that DIYing a fully custom screen with a custom resolution etc isn't very easy :)
If you're buying a panel or scavenging an existing panel it's much "easier". Of course that hasn't stopped youtubers from designing their own 7-segment LCD panels... (example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zoeeR3geTA or https://youtu.be/ZA5vlDdpbkw)
I consider myself to be a decent software engineer. But I am inexperienced in the area of creating my own hardware. I guess a lot of things are just knowing how to stick together pre-made components like "panels, SDRs, IMUs & sensors"? But how important is it to know circuit design?
There are a lot of unknown unknowns. And it is not clear what a good learning path would be to get started with hardware hacking as a hobbyist.
For most of the sensors mentioned in the initial comment, I would assume there are already commercial USB/eDP/PCIE sensors/components, and at least for framework these connectors on the motherboard are clearly exposed. I'd imagine it's possible to have some RJ-xxx sensor needing a RJ-USB converter too, but with the sensor+converter I think it is as easy as "design a box, throw them in".
HOWEVER - ESD is something I've heard can be pretty nasty and show up where you least expect it to. Proper grounding design would help. Beyond that, I am not aware of any "major" issues (there's also general environmental/power noise but ground could help with some of those issues like the "wonky touchscreen when charging". Also stuff like debouncing and pullup/down resistors if using buttons).
My personal knowledge of circuit design isn't very good, I studied it till high school and had an intro to EE class in uni (which actually wasn't bad, learnt the basics of opamp circuits etc) but I don't remember much of those now.
> There are a lot of unknown unknowns. And it is not clear what a good learning path would be to get started with hardware hacking as a hobbyist.
I think if you want to get started, the most "comprehensive" way would be by looking at syllabus of undergraduate EE programs (or MechE for the physical side), and perhaps going through the relevant/interesting chapters.
However the "easiest" will be by just building basic circuits - using an arduino, or making a hand-wired mechanical keyboard. Googling issues like "arduino button changes on its own" will give results like https://arduino.stackexchange.com/questions/186/button-state... which talk about floating pins.
This is as much as I know on this topic (I have "tried learning more esp. in high speed designs but that's vast), if anyone else has helpful suggestions I'll be happy to learn :)
Don't worry. They will catch on... making and copying not just components but the entire framework. It really depends on how popular it gets.
The battery time is also several hours longer than compareable laptops of the same size.
I spent quite some time trying different things to optimize it, but never got more than realistic 3 hours.
Happy with other aspects though.
Now, if someone could find me a native Docker host that lasts all day... then we're in business.
I tried upgrading to the ryzen and when it was good it was really good. I was able to keep a user mode libvirt vm running for dev work and mid brightness under 5W power draw. That used slirp networking, adding a bridge or default nat nic takes up about 2w to 3w of it's own power.
But like most windows laptops the suspend mucked things up. Not even power draw while asleep, but when awaking from sleep the power minimum was 10w with it more often at 20w with similar usage. I tried several wifi cards, nvme drives, port configurations etc. Also tried Fedora, Ubuntu and Nixos.
On Linux this carries over to the discussion of tlp vs power profile daemon, and soon tund. I saw much better performance and regularity with tlp, but that seems like it's not the path forward.
The steam deck shows that suspend can be fixed and done well with decent battery life under linux.
I definitely had to play with powertop a bit and remove some programs that consumed a lot of battery (for example, the blueman tray applet had to go). I'd recommend setting powerManagement.enable = true and powerManagement.powertop.enable = true, and letting powertop run in the background while on battery for a few hours to identify the worst offenders.
This is my configuration: https://kirarin.hootr.club/git/steinuil/flakes/src/branch/ma...
> and letting powertop run in the background while on battery for a few hours to identify the worst offenders.
How do you do the analysis after running powertop in the background?
For Framework Laptop 13 12th Gen, we have an article on optimizing power consumption (this one is written for Ubuntu, but should largely apply to Debian): https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/optimizing-ubuntu-bat...
This surely has to be a software issue, I can't imagine they'd have been silly enough to fit such a tiny battery!
My understanding is that one of the reasons Linux on M-series macs doesn't have the problem is that Asahi team doesn't take similarly crappy attitude.
Also, the issue appears to show up on other 7040 Ryzen laptops, so I hope this finally gets us proper "modern sleep" support instead of instructions to disable it in firmware setup.
My ThinkPad has modern sleep support for the 7840U; sleep and wake are nearly instant with very little battery use while sleeping.
All that configurability of the Framework takes up space, so its battery is 15% less (85 W/h compare to 100 W/h for the MBP).
The MBP has a CPU and instruction set that was optimized for low power from the beginning, compared to x86 which has 40 years of ad-hoc cruft and assumed wall power in the beginning, so it may not even be possible to implement the whole instruction set in low-power. (Intel tried, and did not succeed. Could be BigCO ineffeciencies, but could also be that it just isn't realistic.) But Intel/AMD can't switch architectures like Apple can, because they don't control the software. There's no guarantee that the buyer of a hypothetical improved instruction set Intel CPU has access to a Rosetta program (even if Intel had the imagination to do that). On top of that, Apple has been optimizing that CPU for 15 years, and is has access to the leading node.
Additionally, (presumably because of the lack of legacy cruft) Apple has space on their die for huge caches and the GPU. On-die GPU eliminates power consumption due to an additional discrete component. Large caches also help things go faster, which means the CPU can drop down to low-power mode quicker.
Since Apple owns the CPU, it can customize the CPU for its needs, and it has relentless optimized for low power consumption, even to the extent of putting in a few new instructions for the OS.
Apple owns the OS, so it can have all kinds of power-saving features that a mass-market OS like Windows cannot feasibly implement. It is not in Microsoft's interest to take advantage of every little power savings a motherboard manufacturer might add: extra complexity (= bugs and maintenance costs) with no extra revenue potential. Linux has a similar problem, and additionally there are enough problems needing attention that I expect power optimizations beyond the big ones just do not have the interest / resources. For instance, if a 5% improvement would require a large kernel / driver refactor, I suspect it's a hard sell. Plus, macOS doesn't need to support anywhere near the number of configurations that Linux does, so it probably is less effort to do. So all those 5% increases that Apple can do add up.
Then there is the aspect that Apple can tune its OS for power saving. Update Cocoa to save energy and everyone's app uses less power. I expect GTK and Qt have other more pressing problems. On top of that, I expect Wayland and especially Xorg are not designed with minimal power consumption in mind. Etc, all the way down.
That said, 2.5 hrs does seem like it could definitely be improved.
I get 6 with Ubuntu on my 1240P Framework, and that's with the BIOS limiting the battery to 80%.
The battery situation makes me never use it. Compare to a macbook when I can just close it and open it up weeks later and it just turns on with plenty of charge still left.
Every time I need to use the FW i need to plug it in first or charge it if I want to take it somewhere. Defeats the point of a portable computing device
When I travel with it, i need to make sure I shut it down and not just close the lid, or it discharges and cooks my backpack
Everything else is fine though
Unfortunately, at least on Linux, it requires quite a bit of tuning for the moment. But there are some pretty good guides.
Suspend battery life still isn't great, but it's _much_ better (with s2idle supported) on the latest-gen AMD platform.
I previously had the 11th gen Intel and... I got much better battery life than you, but it was still pretty bad.
... unless you watch a lot of video. Hardware video decoding uses more power than software video decoding in many cases: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/mesa/-/issues/10223
Regardless, it sounds pretty great from this review and the upgradable backslot is a massive achievement.
OTOH, it's only PCIE signal.
Unless they offer something we can press with decent key travel - and I mean no less than 2.5 mm - I'm not buying.
(For those who don't know what I mean: https://www.pcworld.com/article/557179/full-travel-keyboard-... )
and yes, I do say that even though I also have a keychron keyboard for my desktop
If you used the ones from 2012 and earlier, you would find the 2014 laptop keyboard only passable...
The biggest feature I want is a good stylus/touchscreen for portable drawing, in my dream world that would be something I could swap in and out, possibly replacing the keyboard. I can imagine having the front keyboard mostly be a touchscreen display and just sticking a narrow module to one side of the screen with hotkeys...
Having a decent laptop that I can add a GPU to and take a GPU off of, add a digitizer and use as a drawing tablet or remove a touchscreen for trips where I don't need one, switch keyboards for specific projects -- quick swapping of components isn't just cool from a repair perspective, it's a major selling point to be able to have a single device that can serve multiple roles on demand. In most cases you probably don't want a GPU on a laptop; you want extra battery life. Until you do. And when you have some rendering workload or something intensive to do, you turn off the computer, plug in the GPU, and turn it back on.
I really hope that 3rd-party components take off. I'm trying to be responsible and wait until I have an actual need (and at the very least I want to wait and see reviews), but I'd be very tempted to buy one of these as soon as they launch if there was digitizer support, there aren't a lot of good, repairable, linux-compatible drawing tablets on the market.
Then again, I've failed to find any laptop that I like more than the X1 Carbon. It's damn near perfect.
I am fairly certain an Intel system would have had less drama.
Nice to see sustainable, reparable and upgradable laptops come to market.
Perhaps in the next cycle.
I really wish they'd fix this.
Who the hell wants ethernet cables running sideways across their desk?
The price difference between the two is noticeable (more than the 5% geometric mean result) and Tuxedo as a company officially supports Linux in their machines, as opposed to Framework which don't. Yes I know about Framework laptops working with Linux installed, and about Framework drivers existing in fwupd, but Tuxedo actually sell laptops with Linux pre-installed and Framework doesn't; yes that distinction actually matters, it means the company itself is willing to put their name on the line with Linux support.
Sorry @nrp, I did not want to be so negative about the Framework 16, but I do think you have tough competition from Tuxedo in particular and the customizability might not be enough to justify the price difference (at least it is not for me).
Back to the benchmarks themselves, I'd assume the Framework 16 would perform a bit better (at least more than 5%) compared to the Framework 13, I'm guessing there might be some optimisations that could come in the future to improve the results? Maybe it's strength is in longer lived benchmarks because of (supposedly) better thermals, or in performance per watt?
I'm judging the two as a replacement for my current laptop, and the GPU does not really affect that. The soldered RAM on the Tuxedo Pulse 14 laptop does indeed give me doubts, I'm not saying it's flawless, only that, at least to me, it provides a better overall justification for the purchase.
The Framework 13 laptop is still significantly more expensive than Tuxedo Pulse considering the difference in hardware specs.
I understand the difference is from the customizability features, but don't consider it worth it. I'm happy for people to disagree with me.
Because, each and every time, I'd rather install it myself.
Tuxedo is a Linux laptop, Framework is "just another" windows laptop that happens to work with Linux as well.
Best to focus on making the hardware the absolute best.
This includes selecting parts that work well on oss systems, as well as taking special care on the firmware side that everything is as correct and open source as possible.
Anybody else can do software support; that's not my business.
>Tuxedo is a Linux laptop, Framework is "just another" windows laptop that happens to work with Linux as well.
I disagree with the practice of bundling to begin with. If it was up to me, I'd have laws in place to prevent bundling.
I do not want a Linux laptop, or a Windows one. I just want a laptop that doesn't suck.
Unfortunately, in practice it's the case that the vendor's advertised support matters.
it was this: http://xahlee.info/kbd/i/Microsoft_Natural_Keyboard_Gen1-s.j...
vs this: https://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/ProductImage/23-109-...
I'm pretty sure it was still the 90's when I developed this special hate for changing the arrow keys.
Two improvements: matte screen and note than anything else physical buttons on the touchpad. I don't mind if they make the touchpad any smaller. I don't need all the area of the touchpads of the last years.
I wonder if some other company will make accessories for the Framework, starting from the touchpad.
By the way, I'd buy the laptop without the number pad and finally get a touchpad / keyboard combination centered with the screen and my body.
When I buy a new laptop it won't be a framework laptop, that's for sure.
I'm not even convinced the hardware switches are real. When I toggle them on and off, my camera and mic still work so... clearly cant have actually been hardware switches.
bad thermals, the thing always ran hot playing just a single video, the fan was almost always on
You can buy my framework, but you will not like how easily and loudly the fan comes on
I'll look it up and edit in a bit
(maxed out framework vs m2 air)
I don't think anyone is beating mac silicon right now. I didn't understand it until I got this mac I'm using now. Haven't had once in 8 years, which still runs fine for basic things.
I cannot turn my 5th batch laptop on without connecting to a charger. Even if the battery is charged.
Resynchronizing time every day gets old fast.
If you need a laptop now, you are better off getting a higher-end business-class laptop from Dell or Lenovo. (And probably a lot better price too.)