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Comment by juggertao | Hacker News Reader

The system is $10k, the CPU costs $5K, the rest of components at most $3K, so I guess that means $2K profit on each system?

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As it turns out, the cost of designing, testing, and selling a product include more than component costs.

Dealing with customers is a PITA and dealing with suppliers is a PITA, at a 20% markup they're doing you a favor. The one of the reasons bulk discounts exist is that each interaction with a customer is expensive as is the process of finding them.

I mainly sell software but I offer customers hardware to go with it as a favor to them at ~30% markup and it is usually much cheaper than what they can get elsewhere - keeping things under one roof on on one contract makes things easier and we make enough money on the software side we can safely eat potential extra warranty costs on hardware. You'd be surprised but if you let them customers will try to run server software on a 10+ year old laptop and then complain to you when it crashes.

It comes assembled? Presumably that means also it was tested and has some assurance that it works… I imagine they have some labor cost in there too

Even if that math is correct, it's a bit naive to consider that $2k 'profit', contribution margin might be a better definition.

And why be upset that 20 percent of the price isn't "cost"? Think they're going to put things together and deal with a customer for free?

The ‘I have the ability to perform this job and therefore I shouldn’t have to pay for it’ logic.

A 25% markup on component cost is shockingly low to me considering the work that must have gone into developing and assembling this. Not to mention the development that goes into the OS. If I had a good use case for this product, I don't think I'd be unhappy with the sticker price.

It's kinda silly though.

Linux is not a good OS if you aren't into tinkering. Installing your own OS shouldn't be hard for any Linux user.

Now I guess if your expenses it anyway it doesn't matter.

I can write drivers, but it would take me a long time (I've never written driver so factor in a learning curve). Or I can select parts that linux has drivers for - but again it would take me time. I can assemble a computer, but it will take me time. My time is not free.

It takes at most 4 hours to put a computer together even if you're new.

If your time is worth more than 500$ an hour congrats. Then you can have a shop put it together for 150$ to 200$.

What are you going to do when it's time to upgrade? Spend a few thousand on a new CPU and keep going or throw it out and buy a new pre built?

The System76 machine bested Phoronix's DIY setup. So clearly they aren't equivalent.

I don't see how this is possible assuming all the parts are identical.

If I'm too afraid to build my own computer I'll buy a Mac

Components are not identical. The cpu is, but small things like the case is different and that can make a difference (cooling)

I am not paying for the install but for their work.

Try installing Windows 7 on a new laptop or Windows 11 on a Chromebook some time. Lots of stuff will not quite work right.

As with a lot of things, you can outsource that tinkering to someone else. Seems like a sane business model to me.

System 76 laptops are usually very pricey, but this is actually a reasonable margin for a good desktop system assembler.

AFAIK they are just rebranded "Clevo Computer" systems. On the downside if you order from Clevo you will be asked for upfront payment and then you have to go to court to get your money back :D ... so ordering from system76 gives you at least some assurance that you won't get stiffed.

They are a large enough customer of Clevo that they get consulted on product design and changes. When Clevo ships something to system76, system76 already knows what hardware is there and that they have drivers for it. If you buy elsewhere it might look the same and seem to have the same specs, but Clevo might have put in some chip without linux drivers.

do they ship ISO keyboards meanwhile? I'd rather buy system76 but US ASCII keyboard is a deal-breaker.

which are the design differences in hardware? I do not see any real differences other than branding which isn't also offered by a bunch of other clevo resellers. having secureboot and system76 firmware would be a huge benefit and in my view the only value-add but that I you can do yourself because it's FOSS and there is no difference in HW

There's a lot. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17039414

You may find reading like that informative.

It's perhaps not surprising that the laptops that Clevo ships vs those they make for System76 are different. The fact that system76 ships coreboot and an open EC firmware should be a first clue.

Also, for the keyboard: Many or most of their keyboards are configurable these days. See https://github.com/pop-os/keyboard-configurator

The term for "the company that actually manufactures the computers for another company that sells them" is Original Design Manufacturer, ODM. All companies have them. https://www.unleashedsoftware.com/blog/oem-vs-odm-explained-...

Dell's supplier list is at Public Supplier List - Dell https://i.dell.com/sites/doccontent/corporate/corp-comm/en/D...

I know they have a keyboard configurator but that isn't a replacement for an ISO layout though.

Also I came across the thread in the past which you linked, where System76 debunks these assumptions. And I totally agree that a lot of work goes into this. But until now I have not actually seen any difference in chipsets? Custom firmware and branded Bios yes, and a lot of hours goes into verifying these things which I'm happy to pay for. But there is afaik no difference in the chips. You can also re-use the firmware / coreboot (e.g. from s76-DARP9 on a clevo-NS50AU) without issues.

This is an annoying amount of effort though and I would rather get this from system76 if they sold it with ISO keyboard than having to do it myself.

> But until now I have not actually seen any difference in chipsets?

System76 is not Apple. I don't know why you'd expect them to have a wholly new chip set.

Maybe you can flash a given Clevo with the "equivalent" system76 firmware. Maybe you can't. I don't think you're going to get support from either if you do that, though.

You can ask them about it; they're pretty great about responding honestly.

> System76 is not Apple. I don't know why you'd expect them to have a wholly new chip set.

I absolutely don't :)

I'm replying to this statement which I think isn't correct:

> it might look the same and seem to have the same specs, but Clevo might have put in some chip without linux drivers.

Thing is, there are plenty of affordable Clevo reseller, but I'm not sure System76 laptops are 'just' rebranded Clevos?

they are not if you consider the effort that goes into Pop_OS, firmware, coreboot, custom-BIOS and all the testing that is required for it. It's in many ways a phenomenal deal if this is all you need. And considering that you can re-use these things on a Clevo I'd rather support System76 in what they do.

However if you don't care about Pop_OS and really insist on an ISO keyboard then Clevo (or something like Tuxedo Computers) are better options.

When it comes to hardware a Clevo is a Texedo is a System76 is a Sager (and a bunch of others)

> When it comes to hardware a Clevo is a Texedo is a System76 is a Sager (and a bunch of others)

1. That's not necessarily a fact; I don't know that it's been established one way or the other. There may well be small variances in design at the hardware level

2. In a modern PC, firmware is a gigantic factor in how well an OS works on the hardware. See all the troubles with ACPI for a starting point. Even non-obvious things like fans depend greatly on firmware.[1]

In short, if you want to run Linux, buy a Linux computer, with support for as long as you plan on using it, from a company that supports Linux on the hardware.

If you don't, be prepared for random glitches due to the mismatch between OS and firmware.

[1] https://twitter.com/jeremy_soller/status/1322954630448427011

> This System76 Thelio Major review sample was configured with the AMD Ryzen Threadripper 7980X 64-core processor, 4 x 32GB DDR5 Micron MTC20F1045S1RC48BA2 DIMMs, 1TB Crucial T700 CT1000T700SSD5 NVMe SSD, and AMD Radeon PRO W7900 graphics.

Graphic card is like $4000. Board for threadripper could easily be $1000.

The $10K system cost I mentioned is not for the review unit, but for a cheaper configuration with a Radeon RX 7600 GPU ($250). See last page.

And you can go to their GitHub repos and view all of the specifications for the hardware (which is under an open hardware license), look at all the driver code, and follow their development of PopOS!

I bought from System76 in large part to support this kind of organization.

They specially tune their own drivers, firmware, etc.

You don't know how much they are paying for components. (Hint: It's not retail)

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