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Comment by didgeoridoo | Hacker News Reader

> Cars are getting too big; why are manufacturers pushing “crossovers” and SUVs on consumers and why are consumers buying them? I could write pages on this point alone.

I’ve got 3 kids under 5. Car seats are absolutely enormous these days — it’s impossible to fit 3 across in even the largest “crossovers” (VW Atlas / KIA Telluride). I don’t want a big car (my dream car is something along the lines of the Audi A4 Allroad Saloon) but I also sometimes need to bring all my kids to the same place.

Figure out a way to safely downsize car seats and I bet SUV purchases would drop 10% or more.

View on HN

There’s whole sites dedicated to this problem, example https://thecarseatlady.com/narrowest-car-seats/

But if you pick narrow seats you can make it work. I have 3 car seats in the back of a 2016 Subaru Legacy, which also generally a bloatfree car

> Figure out a way to safely downsize car seats and I bet SUV purchases would drop 10% or more.

Like an Estate / Station Wagon, a category of very capable cars that is being extinguished by the rise of SUV.

Yeah that’s my Allroad. Almost impossible to find in the states, and priced bizarrely — base price exceeds the Q5 SUV. It honestly seems like they’re TRYING to not sell any.

As I understand it, classic station wagons are classified as "cars", while SUVs are classified as "light trucks". [edit: in the US]

Different regulations apply to the two categories, in particular fuel economy. From what I'm seeing, a manufacturer's current line of "cars" has to average over 40 mpg, while their line of "light trucks" only has to average around 30 mpg.

This has probably changed a bit... the most current numbers I see are for the 2020 model year.

I had an A6 all road from 2005 until 2020. Great car. Great engine. Maintenance costs eventually got too crazy.

The family vehicle for much of my childhood was a late 80s model Aries K station wagon. Always managed to fit everybody and all our stuff, and always got us there (albeit not always with speed, particularly on mountain roads… that little 4-cylinder wasn’t exactly a powerhouse).

Really a very practical vehicle. Just needed a little more oomph.

Have you looked at minivans? When my 3 were under 5 a couple years ago they all fit, with room for all the stuff. No, it's not sexy, but it's incredibly practical.

My 2014 Renault Traffic long box on wheels gets nine people and their luggage over 1100 kilometers on a single fuel tank... I don't understand SUV that weight double, cost double and only seat five people at half the range.

I'll hopefully keep it for at least a decade or two - it is designed for much more demanding tasks than the about monthly family outings, the holidays and standing idle the rest of the time while I commute with my bicycle and shop with my cargo bicycle.

I fail to see anything electric currently available that could replace that incredible efficiency. I hope that, by the time I'm ripe for replacing it, the technology and the market will have matured.

"SUV that weight double, cost double and only seat five people at half the range."

That's just not right. Minivans are typically as big, if not longer, and weigh more or less the same. As to cost, unless you're comparing the suburban, (relatively rare vehicle even in my corner of rich, suburbanite, 6 kids midwest) their cost is comparable.

Ive been looking to buy a Sienna for over a year and I cant find one without dropping almost $70 k out the door. For that money I can get an expedition and have more space.

Renault Trafic in 9 seat configuration weights 1.8 tons - so yes, it is only one ton less than the average fuel-powered SUV... But the electric ones are much heavier. It costs 25k€ which gets a modest subcompact SUV or about half of a popular large one.

What do you mean by "ton" in either Kg or on lb (or stone for all I care). Like calories, ppl mess that unit up all the time (tonne, ton, short ton, long ton, etc).

If you mean 1800 kg, my full size 3.3 L V6 Sorrento weighs less at 1724 Kg. So unless you're comparing a Renault to a GMC Suburban, which I must insist are rare, you're just nowhere near the right mass.

I love my minivan but it doesn’t entirely solve the size issue: a Toyota Sienna is 7 inches longer than a Kia Telliride (one of the largest crossovers) and only six inches shorter than a Ford Expedition (which is a solid example of a traditional truck frame SUV)

There's a good argument that a lot of people buying 3-row SUVs would probably be better off with a minivan--which is what many of my whitewater paddling friends drive. But, as you say, they're mostly not actually smaller vehicles for the most part.

You do miss the ground clearance for some applications. Even just comparing to the old CRV we had, we drove that places you wouldn’t be able to take a minivan.

But for internal capacity, so much better: one of the big things is that the much shorter hood makes it easier to maneuver and gives you more usable space from that extra length.

I once needed to haul a bunch of tile and my dad was out of town with his truck that I normally borrowed at the time. My grandmother offered the use of her minivan and I balked that there was no way it could handle the weight. We looked it up and it had something like over 1500 pounds of capacity which impressed me and I used it to get my tile. It was also quite comfortable for road trips. As you say though, they are not cool and so people will find reasons to dismiss them.

Cool scientists and detectives roll around in Minivans with their telescope and listening devices.

I have a family and live in a place that gets snowy. I would love an all wheel drive minivan that I could put good tires on. But that category is dominated by SUVs.

My theory is that it's about making the model line up more efficient: SUVs can sell with both families and with image-conscious individuals. So rather than selling mini-vans to families and trucks to individuals who just think they're cool, sell SUVs to both groups.

Minivans are super practical vehicles, with great engineering that get overlooked because they have a weird uncool stigma about them.

Uncool to whom? Everyone I know who has even two kids wants one, and anyone with more than three already has one or is miserable constantly taking both vehicles everywhere. The waitlist on a Toyota Sienna is well over a year long. 1-year old models sell above new MSRP because you can get one today with 10k miles on it vs. putting your name on a list and waiting.

And they're not cheap by any stretch. A base model Sienna is almost $40k. That's more than a year's income for 25% of households[0]. The Platinum starts at $15k more than that.

[0] https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percen...

Minivans are super hard to buy right now - although demand probably isn't too high the supply is extremely limited.

A minivan would be too big for my family's daily needs, but I love renting them for road trips. Even the older dodge caravan has great space and is a comfy ride for everyone.

> Minivans are super practical vehicles, with great engineering that get overlooked because they have a weird uncool stigma about them.

So much this. My minivan fits my five kids, myself, and all of their bikes (using the big trunk and front seat) with room to spare. It's amazing.

Nonetheless, my wife won't drive it and complains constantly that it would "make her look like a soccer mom." She hates it.

Instead she drives a Subaru Ascent, which only just barely fits the kids, feels cramped, and has maybe 30% of the cargo space—all while having a pretty similar footprint.

Not so uncool when you stick all the kids, the dog and the luggage inside, two kayaks and two rigid SUP boards on the roof and three bikes on the back rack.

> a weird uncool stigma about them

would be easiest to just move the marketing dollars from the Mustang to the Sienna, but those dollars come from the markup over BOM that Mustang owners are willing and able to afford

Sienna purchasers probably don't mind paying less for a stigma since their primary concern likely is carrying kids around, instead of advertising their ability to have them in the first place

Minivans are awesome. My first car was a 800 dollar Ford Windstar I got from a touring band called Creekside. Had a "I believe Edward Snowden" sticker on it and only 4 seats.

Quiet, spacious, Great sound system, V6, 4 captains chairs, room for our drums and amps. Cruised great. No maintainence in the 3 years I owned it. Fuel economy around 20 on a good day. Very comfortable.

Seats popped out, tons of storage room. Low rear bumper / floor so you could easily load it.

Prior to the Ford flex they were used by a lot of installers for these favorable features

My family had a used Chrysler Town and Country for getting around through the early 2000s.

Great car. Its engine was a a notch or two above baseline which gave it plenty of power, plenty of room, drove well. Also if you needed to haul something large instead of kids just pop out as many seats as needed and suddenly you had van-like cargo space.

I laugh every time I see ads for some giant, fuel inefficient, unsafe, ridiculous SUV advertising third row seating. Minivans are the answer to every question that ends in families buying a giant SUV right now but they’re not “cool”.

I bought a Honda Pilot because I occasionally seat 7, frequently haul lumber, pipe, etc. which that the guy say fold down seats are a boon, and need a tow package. Fits the bill.

Could make a van work I suppose.

Not enough ground clearance, at least until the latest KIA Carnival came out. I live in New England, land of unplowed roads and potholes. Even our old Saab would bottom out on the regular.

I guess that’s a local issue. I wonder why people who don’t have such clearance issues don’t choose minivans. I, for example, drove minivans in California for many years in mountain snow without issue.

The difference between minivans and most SUVs (especially crossovers) that people buy isn't all that great, maybe 1-1.5 inches. Most SUVs aren't really high-clearance 4WD like a Jeep Rubicon is. You get into other issues like run-flats vs. standard tires and the lack of a full-size spare but even most relatively serious SUVs don't automatically come with full-size spares any longer and their factory jacks tend to be useless.

We have just one kid on the way and would already buy a minivan if they weren't so hard to get. The waitlist on a Sienna is well over a year long. We have friends who put their names on the list in Q1 2022 and are still waiting "another 4 or 5 months."

I drive a Ford Escape and I fit 3 car seats. You just need to strategically choose them, particularly using a slim size in the center.

I don't think 10% would even come close. People are barely having kids yet alone 3 kids. Most of the land tanks i see at daycare / school are for 1 kid and sometimes two. Granted, they have as much luxury as an international flight with TVs, charger ports, personal air, snacks and all the rest.

I've never actually seen one but a while back on HN there was a claim that in Europe they sell a "4 across" car seat. It's apparently just one BIG seat but b/c it's a, pardon the pun, a "monolith" seat then it will fit into the back of a regular European SUV.

It's called multimac and I wish they sold it in the US: https://www.multimac.com/home

SUVs are pushed by manufacturers due to their relative lack of regulation in the US, and so the more money they can make from them. Safety and car seat sizes have nothing to do with it.

https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo

You didn't read the OP's comment.

He wants an A4 He has a much bugger car because he needs fo fit three car seats.

That the market has cars bug enough for him, and the reasons for providing it, are not germane to his comment.

Why do you feel the need to tell me I didn't read the comment? I did, and my comment was my response.

> That the market has cars bug enough for him, and the reasons for providing it, are not germane to his comment.

Did you watch the video? If the response to "why are cars so big now" is "because kids" then I think it's relevant to point out that that's not why they're big, and that we somehow manage to have 3 backseats and non-tank sized SUVs in Europe just fine.

We had 3 under 3. When our son was 5 and the twins were 3, we were able to switch to forward facing car seats in the back of my Dodge Challenger, which is technically just a coupe. They're all Diono Radian car seats, and the kids fit comfortably 3 across.

Just thought I'd share in case you ever want to reconsider the dream car thing. You never know until you try and you can always bring car seats and test fit.

To your original point though, most of the time we use my wife's Honda Pilot because of the extra space for errands, sports gear, and luggage (and also because my wife doesn't want to drive stick in Northern Virginia traffic).

What you need is a minivan. Toyota Proace City Verso for instance. SUVs are big but the usable space inside is quite small. It'a not a sports car or a status symbol, but it handles the 3 kids part quite fine.

Not directly my issue, but kids are my primary reason for needing a larger vehicle.

We live in an area too remote for regular public transit, and are not ready to sacrifice the convenience of having our own vehicle.

Because we own one vehicle, it must transport 2 kids (in carseats), 2 adults regularly, a third adult occasionally, and a dog regularly. Plus it needs a smidge of storage room.

In short, our environment and family makes an SUV a good option. Everything else is really difficult to live with.

> it’s impossible to fit 3 across in even the largest “crossovers” (VW Atlas / KIA Telluride)

Just buy narrow car seats designed for 3 across. I've done it recently in a Subaru Outback with zero issues.

It can be tough in the third row of cars with a third row because of the wheel wells, but it seems to work fine in a regular car.

In the US you have an option to turn front passenger airbags off and place a baby seat there. In Europe there's no such option.

I hope those enormous modern seats are made that way for the sake of protection. Cause even with a bigger car, like Audi A6, two such seats consume all the space on the back bench

> In Europe there's no such option.

Yes, there is.

On the models designed for the US market - maybe. I have checked with 3 cars being produced specifically for Europe: Volvo, Audi and Toyota. While on the majority of videos and instructions there's a special off switch, on those cars it does not exist.

Pretty sure it's mandatory - I seem to recall a considerable educational campaign when they first arrived in Poland regarding passenger front side airbag and child car seats.

I live here and have rented vehicles across pretty much all brands and have never seen a car where the front passenger airbag can't be turned off. In fact there are ~identical regulatory stickers on the passenger sun shade warning that the passenger airbag needs to be turned off when a rear facing car seat is used in the passenger seat.

All my European cars had that option including a 2005 diesel Suzuki Jimny and a 2013 Audi A1.

I think you are incorrect on this, certainly for Audi but probably Toyota and Volvo as well.

No such option in Europe?

This is mandatory at all European countries since the first passenger seat airbag.

> In the US you have an option to turn front passenger airbags off and place a baby seat there. In Europe there's no such option.

What? This is totally false. Even friggin cheapo Dacias have that feature.

Meh, probably I was thinking unlucky with my garage then

Yeah crossovers are pointless. I had to sit in the back row of a crossover where every seat was full and ended up having the driver pull over due to claustrophobia. My head was against the ceiling and I could barely move. I'm 6' tall, not small but not a basketball player.

Diono car seats fit three across in a CRV for us. They’re built like little airplane seats.

Large/Medium Sedans are larger than most SUVs, they are several sizes larger than all crossovers. I like sedans because they have the most space of all cars except maybe top of the range SUVs.

Back in the day, there were station wagons for this exact use case, Larger than a sedan, but not the ridiculous tank-like SUVs of today.

You can still buy a Subaru Outback. The infotainment is horrendous (just give me knobs!), but otherwise it's supposed to be a dependable station wagon, at a reasonable price, without too many frills. The AWD does hurt gas mileage, but has advantages in snow and dirt, and basically means that it's as capable as an SUV in all but ground clearance.

I bought a V60, one of the few remaining station wagons for sale in the US. And it is great for those with 1 or 2 kids, but, like the author implies, doesn't really work for those with 3 car seats. The only thing that has grown faster than the size of our cars is the size of our car seats.

3rd kid is much more expensive than the 2nd

This is true. It required us to buy a new house with another room; versus more nice to have. Lots of public accommodations are maximized for four people such as restaurant seating or hotel rooms. Parents can no longer just split up with one kid.

There are lower cost options. We did have to buy a new car (replaced a Toyota 4Runner with a Ford F150 Crew Cab) - our other car was already a Honda Odyssey - but all three of our kids share a bedroom and I bought a lightweight Helinox cot that we use in hotel rooms when we can't find a place with 2x queen/king + sofa bed.

You put the passenger adult in the middle in the back.

buying 3 car seats that fit in your car needs a bit of research, but I've done it in a Honda CRV

Time to join the minivan gang

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