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Comment by TulliusCicero | Hacker News Reader

Visiting Japan this last summer, I was shocked at how much cheaper basic meals were.

Even if you used a 1 USD = 100 JPY exchange rate instead of the real one, I could get nicer breakfasts than McDonald's for much cheaper somewhere like Sukiya, and they're open 24/7 to boot! Fully open, not just a drive through sometimes like in the states. Ordering experience was great too, they have these tablets where you can switch the language to English so it's easy.

Anyway, it kinda feels like McDonald's in the US isn't actually that cheap anymore? When I order breakfast there sometimes, it always feels like the food is kind of pricey considering they're just keeping it warm or warming up premade food.

Edit: looks like I'm not just imagining it, Big Mac prices have outpaced inflation over the last couple decades - https://www.axios.com/2022/04/17/mcdonalds-big-mac-inflation...

I wonder why?

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> Anyway, it kinda feels like McDonald's in the US isn't actually that cheap anymore? When I order breakfast there sometimes, it always feels like the food is kind of pricey considering they're just keeping it warm or warming up premade food.

US McDonalds has extreme price discrimination akin to what you see with grocery store memberships like Ralphs where they have a "regular" price that almost no one is expected to pay because everyone has a free membership that just requires your (or Jenny's) phone number . If you download their app, it has a bunch of coupons that lower the price of (almost) the entire menu.

Exactly this.

It used to be the same prices for everyone.

Now prices have gone up, but if you use the app you basically always get either free medium fries (normally $4), buy-one-get-one-free for a Big Mac or QPC, or a few other promos, or accumulated points (that basically give you 10% off everything in the long run).

Generally speaking I'll pay $8 for a meal that would be $12 otherwise, basically every single time.

(Not to mention that you also skip the line, and if you use the app a few minutes before you arrive, your food will be waiting for you when you do.)

And here I’ve been paying for my fries like a sucker. I’m hesitant to call this information “helpful” as it’ll increase my consumption of French fries, but I appreciate it nonetheless.

Maybe it depends on the McDonald's franchisee in your area, I never see free fries in the app but it's always "any size fries for $1.29" (which is still massively cheaper than their normal price).

Yep, it’s region and even sub-region specific. Sometimes different McD near me (a couple of miles apart) have different deals.

Where I live the one closest always has a BOGO breakfast sandwich while the one closer to my parents (3hrs away) will do a “buy one, get $1 off another”.

It’s crazy how much cheaper things are when using the apps for fast food places. I regularly save $3-5 using some $1-item/BOGO/%-off type of coupon.

Yeah I think the promos are very region dependent. I've never seen that one, for instance. Yours is worse for a medium, but way better because it lets you save money on a large!

Yeah. I was once driving home to Minnesota from Wisconsin. I was getting gas, opened to app, looked at the deals, and decided I’d rather eat later. Once I was in Minnesota a lot of them changed.

I shuddered when the (Canadian) iPhone app insisted that it was allowed to run as a background process and that precise geolocation was on. GFYS was my second reaction.

Precise geolocation is used to pick the nearest McDonald's. You need precise in urban areas where there might be multiple locations only a few blocks away.

I don't know why you would have given it always-on (background) location permission. iPhones don't ever grant that by default, you always have to opt in. Nor does the app require it -- when it asks the first time you run the app, just pick "only while using the app". Or turn it off in Location settings if you picked the wrong setting initially.

Even if you choose "only while using the app", the app can work around that if it's registered as a navigation app. I've seen the "[app] is actively using your location" message in the statusbar when using both the uber and mcdonalds app, despite only granting the "only while using the app" permission. Also the mcdonalds app requires precise location access to see any of the offers/promos.

> I've seen the "[app] is actively using your location" message in the statusbar

Sure, but that's intentional and incredibly obvious in the status bar. It tracks your location between when you place an order and when you're close to the restaurant so that you can confirm for them to start the order.

It's not like it keeps tracking you for hours or days afterwards or anything. Same as Uber -- it turns off after your ride is done. The status bar message disappears.

Point is, the app doesn't seem designed to harvest location data. If you pick up an order at the restaurant, they know you were there anyways. Your phone isn't telling them something they don't already know.

It does actually. The McDonalds app "accidentally" forgets to check when you've picked up your order and keeps tracking you until you go into the app, then it'll check and realize you picked it up and stop tracking you.

Sounds like a bug? It doesn't do that on my phone.

Especially since the blue status bar is so obvious. Nobody wants that sticking around on their screen.

Having location data on can potentially implicate you in a crime.

It can also be used as an alibi, so if you go kill your ex wife, make sure you have location tracking turned on, and give your phone to someone else to be in another place.

Not a lawyer, but my estimate is that this would stand up in approximately zero courts worldwide

It has been presented as evidence (e.g., https://corrcronin.com/2023/05/never-off-the-grid-how-to-fin...)

All of those examples are of LE claiming that somebody was at a given location, not a defendant using it to prove they were somewhere else.

What's the difference? One is somewhat difficult to fake, the other is laughably easy.

Not saying it hasn't been attempted somewhere, I'm saying it would be a very weak prosecutor who couldn't cast doubt on it as a piece of "proof"

The proof obligation is (correctly) vastly higher in one direction than the other in a US criminal trial.

A defendant using it to create reasonable doubt is a win for the defense. A prosecutor who is only able to cast doubt on it is not a win for the prosecution.

It's evidence. What it means is up to interpretation, but I doubt it would be blocked entirely. It would be up to the prosecutor to challenge the assumption that you and your phone are in the same place, or that there was some other flaw in the data.

When using that workaround the Dynamic Island will show that the app is using navigation. It's a prominent UI indicator impossible to miss. Much more obvious than the small location icon next to the clock.

For such apps I prefer to manually terminate them when not using, instead of merely moving them to the background.

Can you download the app from their parking lot, on their WiFi, do your thing, and uninstall it?

Leaving a food app installed seems unnecessary in the first place.

Yeah you could do that, but uninstalling and reinstalling every time seems unnecessary imo.

This was my issue. It took too long.

"Too long"? Are we not talking about, like, 60 seconds? Admittedly I don't use these things, but is there some major inconvenience I'm missing?

The app is 255 MB. If you’re on a 2 GB plan, that’s an 1/8th if your data for the month just to save a few bucks.

This is in addition to when you just want to eat the damn thing once you get it.

I didn't realize 2GB plans were still common. I'm paying $15 a month for 5 (U.S., in New England), and figured people who paid real money for their plans had enough that one app wouldn't matter.

But then McDonald's also has free WiFi, so does it matter?

It's because if you order pickup, they don't actually start making it until you get there.

To save a few dollars you installed an app that will gather as much data as possible, selling your info to big data providers but we're only worried about Google.

Gasp! Maybe I'll be forced to see an ad somewhere too .. or worse, they'll use this info about me visiting McDonald's to profile me and my kind, and we'll suffer endless harassment and persecution

They’re selling your precise location to data brokers that sell it to the police (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/03/fbi-finally-admi...) so you can get a deal on french fries that are killing you. This is no way to live.

I hate to tell you, but they already know your location because they know you picked up your food at that McDonald's. They don't need the app for that.

The app isn't tracking your location except between ordering your food and picking it up. As discussed elsewhere in this thread, your Location privacy settings in iOS ensure that.

Location tracking, sharing other apps installed, photos, contacts and aggregating that data to larger providers to be used for rtb adnetworks is the main reason. Doubt you will get persecuted but I also doubt you would publicly share your photo photos.

I always use the app to order because of all the deals. I damned near lived off the free shit from the McDonald's app last year.

One issue is that this system (that many places now use) of only giving you the best prices on the app vastly discriminates against many poor and/or homeless people who often neither have a debit card nor a phone (or no data).

They recently replaced the buy one get one free with buy one get one 30% off for Big Macs here

Same here (in both San Francisco and Pacifica).

  buy-one-get-one-free for a Big Mac or QPC

I've used that deal many many times, but the last time I opened the app, it had been replaced with a buy-one-get-30%off-second :(

Weird. Here in Europe the prices are the same everywhere in the same country and they don't really do coupons.

They also have the excellent "menu4you" meal here in Spain that gets you a double cheeseburger (basically a big Mac) medium meal for 4,50€. Previously it was even 4€.

They are really trying to promote their app with free goodies though. I tried to install it but it refused to work because I didn't install it through the play store. I don't use a Google account so I use aurora store to install apps. I do have the basic Google play services installed for eg push messages, i just don't use a Google account to minimise tracking.

For some reason the McDonald's app is the single one I have tried that complains about it. Not sure what their issue is with that.

I use McDonald's if I need a known quality food quick. Not great quality but consistent. And I actually like their breakfast muffins once in a while.

McD apps for both Germany and Switzerland feature coupons. In Switzerland, physical coupons show up in my postbox.

For whatever reason the coupons very seldom work for my meal preferences so I don't bother with them.

In Spain the main reason I've gone to McDs is for the cheap affogato in summer.

I often end up in an McD off the Autobahn due to a long road trip I take regularly. Reviews matter. McDs are not consistently run. Many stockpile and serve stale fries, and the attention to detail on burger assembly varies wildly.

> no one is expected to pay

I eat at US McDonald's frequently. It's easy to observe how many people use their app, place mobile orders, or have a code to use at the ordering kiosks, and that percentage is quite small.

The vast majority of McDonald’s customers are not using the app to order.

That's the whole point. Customers who are price-sensitive do use the app to order, while people with money to spare don't bother.

That's why McDonald's does it. It's the same thing grocery stores have always done with coupons in the weekly flyer -- customers who are price-sensitive cut them out and use them, while people with money to spare don't bother. Or with clothing sales -- people who want the trendiest clothes at the start of the season buy them full-price, while people who wait until the end of the season get them at a steep discount.

Yes, I'm aware of the point of price discrimination, I was responding to "they have a "regular" price that almost no one is expected to pay"

>That's the whole point. Customers who are price-sensitive do use the app to order, while people with money to spare don't bother.

That's the whole point. Customers willing to sell their privacy for the lower prices use the app to order, while people unwilling to sell their privacy are subject to 'privacy tax'.

Slight /s but only slight.

The app isn't giving away much privacy information that your credit card isn't.

Yeah, they know my name and what I ordered at each location. I'm OK with that.

You can also use a throwaway email address to sign up and use the app to order, get the discounts, but pay in cash when you arrive. If you're determined to keep your identity secret from McDonald's.

> The app isn't giving away much privacy information that your credit card isn't.

Always running, internet connected app is surely reveals a bit more of you/your habits than a CC number.

> throwaway email address to sign up

They are okay with that, data matters more than an ability to match your email.

> keep your identity secret from McDonald's.

I'm not okay with any corporation having an identity info on me. It's not an equal exchange.

> Always running, internet connected app is surely reveals a bit more of you/your habits than a CC number.

Don't think so. It's not always running.

What else is there to reveal? That I changed my mind and swapped the QPC for a Big Mac in my cart at the last second?

Apps are sandboxed. I literally can't guess what you think the app is supposedly tracking besides my orders.

> Don't think so. It's not always running.

Are sure? Seen sources? Decompiled? Never ever got notifications about great promotions? Read EULA?

> I literally can't guess what you think the app is supposedly tracking besides my orders.

Don't guess: https://play.google.com/store/apps/datasafety?id=com.mcdonal...

They don't staff the counter anymore so you order from a kiosk, and if I'm ordering from a computer anyway, I might as well use an app on my phone, and then I can do it from my car in the parking lot instead of going in. I'd love to hear from McDonald's how many orders are via the app vs the kiosk vs drive thru.

The app isn’t very good. They don’t start preparing your order until you arrive in store, and it just seems like so many steps compared to the Starbucks app where you just say, I want it now and it gives you the estimated time it will be ready. Apps that allow for ASAP are easier to use.

They're coupons. They apply to drive through and dine in orders.

Still the vast majority do not use them.

That's their entire point.

Extreme price discrimination against people who don't know better/don't bother/etc.

McD has the most generous coupons in their apps among fast food chain and there is basically no limit.

It depends on the market. I worked at the East Palo Alto McD while I was getting back on my feet a few years back and we had hours where 60-70% of the orders used the app in some way. I’d say probably 35-40% of our customers used the app; of regulars, more than 50%.

I was JUST looking at that location because it's about the closest to me. I'm between EPA, University Ave, Menlo Park, and Stanford locations: 6.59, 6.69, 6.09. Meanwhile, Foster City is only $4.99!

Interesting.

Note that the price was $6.69 at that McDonald's and the one at Stanford Shopping Center. But it was $6.09 at the locations on El Camino Real in Redwood City, Menlo Park, Palo Alto and Mountain View.

Huh - I tried installing the app a couple of times, and couldn't get it to work. I'll try again - thanks!

The reason is that they have captured a set of customers who don't want cheap fast food, they want McDonalds. Same for most other similar chains.

Chipotle was great when it was a filling Mexican-ish meal for $5-6. Today the same food is $13-16. It makes no sense for them to stay in business when you can get a burrito for the same price from a much nicer Mexican restaurant across the street, but the people going there specifically want Chipotle burritos and are willing to pay $16 for it.

FWIW, I see 9.20 for Chipotle in Maryland (and one of the more expensive parts of that expensive state, at that) for the chicken burrito/bowl, no add-ons. I don't deny the disappearance of formerly free hacks and add-ons, or that price has gone up, but the nearly 2.5x probably has some local craziness thrown in.

Edit: ouch, just saw it jumped to 10.10 since my last monthly Chipotle order.

And that's without guac? What's the point.

I stopped at a chipotle in the Bay area a couple months ago; the check was $19. I was pretty surprised

Really? I get the vegetarian burrito (includes guac, I get a second bean scoop as well) in the bay for $10 after tax, no tip prompt either which is nice.

Yes, McDonalds is way too expensive now given the quality and (lack of) service.

When I was a kid/young adult (1980s/1990s) I ate at McDonald's quite a bit. I remember it as being decent food and a pretty good value. The restaurants were generally clean and service was usually fast.

I don't know if my tastes have changed or the food has or both, but I can't stand McDonalds now. I may have eaten there once or twice in the past 5 years.

The food is bad, the french fries in particular are awful (they used to be great), the employees are indifferent and act like customers are an interruption, and it's expensive.

You could be remembering a time when McD's used to cook their fries in beef tallow. They switched to 'vegetable' oil around 1990 [1] due to the persistent myth that animal fats promote heart disease, or at a rate higher than other oils.

IMHO, tallow/lard fried fries taste way better, and McD's really messed up here.

[1] https://www.thedailymeal.com/1020277/the-mcdonalds-fries-sca...

I suspect the difference in Japan is actually related to commercial real estate rent

The Japanese Yen is just very weak right now for a number of reasons.

I feel like exchange rate doesn't tell you the whole story. If relative income is lower in Japan then items might be priced lower to accommodate the market.

Right. How many hours do I have to work for this food is the real question.

Depending on location, many Japan McDonalds locations would pay its employees less than 1000 yen/hour.

Yeah, egg McMuffins are like 5 bucks now. I’ve started making them on my own, which is actually pretty easy.

Maybe the inexpensive, fresh food at convenience stores drives down fast food prices there?

Yeah, Japan has so many more options than the US when it comes to food on the go whether you compare the foods available at 7/11s or the $2 bento boxes in a subway station. In the US, fast food is your only option on the go.

I needed that laugh... :-D

What laugh, please explain.

If people cared about fresh food, McDonald's would not exist let alone thrive :)

I care about fresh food, but I can still enjoy McDonalds every once and a while.

McDonald's does well in Japan and Australia where people have many very high quality food options.

It's also not that popular with poor people in the US because it's more expensive than grocery shopping.

It's not binary. Even caring a tiny bit will add more competitive pressure. And that doesn't address the "inexpensive" part.

I mean, first of all, Japan as a whole has lower cost of living than the US (in term of absolute value, not percentage of income).

And from my personal experience, certain things like eating out and hotels are particularly more expensive in the US than the baseline.

> Even if you used a 1 USD = 100 JPY exchange rate instead of the real one

Well, if we use this.. their website currently lists Big Mac as 450 yen, which isn't that different from 4.x USD price that covers majority of the US.

450¥ is actually $3.11 which is cheaper than any US Big Mac.

Hence I quoted his "Even if you used a 1 USD = 100 JPY".

I remember being shocked that a nice restaurant meal in Paris was so much cheaper than it would have been in the U.S.

Economic theory would suggest that you price your product where it will give you the maximum amount of return or profit.

So even if increasing price might lower total number of sales the total dollar amount might actually be bigger than before.

Right, but normally this is kept somewhat in check by competitive markets.

Prices rising are usually a sign that either input costs have risen in a way in which all parties have to deal with them, or the market is becoming less competitive somehow so incumbents can get away with higher prices.

> price your product where it will give you the maximum amount of return or profit.

this is where price discrimination, aka charging a different price to each customer, comes in.

By finding out the maximum a customer would be willing to pay, you can get more profit than a static price for all customers. The only thing is that another customer would not like to see themselves pay a higher price for the same good.

Coupons, apps, etc, are the modern way to get around the customers seeing the "real" price others are paying.

In short term aligned with the bonus cycle of management. If high price cause people who have McD as habit slowly trickle to alternate chains/cuisine/modes of eating. In long they may make loss.

McDonald's is a franchise so you can't guess its behavior by your assumption of how McDonald's corporate management works.

Japan has an eating out culture due to smaller living spaces. It sadly became a lot more expensive recently with salaries staying low. McDonalds went up dramatically over 5 years. The quality also went down.

>I could get nicer breakfasts than McDonald's

I'll also point out that Japan McDonald's food is nicer than US McDonald's food.

Yes, I'm serious. Even the buns are so much nicer over there, let alone the stuff between them.

Having eaten SFBA and Tokyo McDonald's in the last month I like the SF one better.

(In the US I usually get whichever burger has the most burger for the least bread, ask for extra vegetables, get the mango smoothie, and don't eat the fries.)

McDonald's prices are all over the place. Big Macs are expensive because of the brand name, but other stuff is remarkably cheap.

Japan’s been in deflation for decades.

>I was shocked at how much cheaper basic meals were

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