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Comment by nelblu | Hacker News Reader

I've been a gym rat for almost 20 years now, and I'm probably the worst customer for gyms. I only workout at 24*7 gyms and being an early bird I get there at 430 and I have pretty much the whole gym for myself. I am there 6 days a week and I always shower at the gym. Further, I use the corporate discounts available to join the memberships. With all that, it comes down to approx. $50 a month for membership and I used to think that it was on the higher side (to be fair post covid it increased from $40 to $50). But reading this article was an eye opener, I guess I need to thank all those people who subsidize my gym fees, and I am now more accepting of the membership fees.

Finally I must add, all the friends (more like acquaintances) you make at the gym are absolutely crucial to motivate oneself and also just have a positive social interaction. I guess that perk of the gym membership is not even quantifiable.

I feel really thankful and privileged to have gyms around now, I will never take them for granted going forward.

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>I'm probably the worst customer for gyms [...] I get there at 430

no that's the best customer for gyms. The ACTUAL way gyms make money is by heavily over subscribing a fixed amount of resources (machines/benches/space). You finding some random time to go to the gym instead of just canceling has barely any marginal cost over some one just not going and you'll talk positively about having a membership.

I guess the most economically efficient model would be for gyms to charge per use with surge pricing.

4-5am? $2. 5-6pm? $10!

Reverse pricing is much more enjoyable for people. Free lattes in the early morning hours, free protein shakes during other off hours, early bird/night owl discount when you renew for the long term if you badge in during off-peak hours exclusively.

From the article: "There are many commercial gyms that won’t let you in on a ‘pay-as- you-go’ basis at all, even if you beg."

Pay as you go in general is not popular. It creates an incentive to not use the product or service and makes people feel bad about using it. Meanwhile upfront payments make you feel good about using the service. You already paid for it, using it is getting your monies worth.

And if you can’t build a habit around using their service, you won’t stay a customer for long.

The ideal customer is someone who pays but doesn’t use it. But these people tend to not renew their subscriptions. So realistically you want someone who habitually uses it and will remain a customer forever.

I think the Planet Fitness model is to appeal to non-gym-goers, and to also be cheap enough where people carry the membership year to year, because it’s not a big enough charge to hurt, while making the customer feel like they have some good intentions by having the membership.

People love to bag on Planet Fitness. I suppose they brought it on themselves, but things have moved on. I have multiple gym memberships: one to a world renowned powerlifting gym, another to an athletic training facility popular with professional athletes, and my local planet fitness. I have that because it’s closest to my son’s mother’s house (we meet there a couple of times per week) and it’s my “travel gym membership” since 24 Hour Fitness closed in our town.

All that lead up to say: the numerous PFs I visit are regularly busy and people work out there quite regularly. I see a lot of familiar faces at each of the locations. Their clientele is no worse or less dedicated than those of the other gyms.

Also, having visited their gyms in a number of coastal metro cities I’ll say that they do a really great job of maintaining their equipment.

I'd be curious to see the numbers on Planet Fitness. At $10/month, what is their percentage of members who regularly show vs never showing up. $10/month is easy to forget about, like a steaming service. A gym charging $50 or $100+/month is harder to ignore and I assume would have a higher percentage of members actually showing up. Not because people who pay more will be more likely to turn into gym rats, but because there would be fewer people brushing off the monthly charge as a rounding error in their budget over time.

I've been to a Planet Fitness once as a guest of someone while on vacation. It as well kept, I was able to find some equipment for a good workout, and it was pretty crowded (in August), and I'm sure there are a lot of regulars. The question is, what percentage of the overall membership are those regulars?

I'm not sure if they still do the pizza thing, but that always struck me as odd and what gave them a bad image in my book. I never wanted to be a member of a gym that appeared to be sabotaging its members. It makes it seem like the gym isn't invested in the success of its members. I felt the same way about the dentist giving me candy after a cleaning when I was a kid.

They pay a guilt tax.

I've seen gyms/pools offer reduced price off-peak only memberships.

My gym charges cancellation fees for not attending any group class you might have signed up for. It's kinda motivating to get yourself up there but sometimes you just don't sign up because you are not sure if you will feel motivated enough to go in that day. Either way, they make money.

That’s what our local gym did. It was ultra frustrating to use and they stopped offering it after a while.

My gym charged a cheaper rate for swimming from 10am to 3pm. I swam on my lunch break and saved a bunch of money.

Hmmm, not sure how much a customer taking a hot shower costs a gym.

Probably about 6 cents. Assuming a 30 minute shower with a 2.5 gpm flow rate and 110F average temperature. Maybe less if they have a more efficient water heater than resistive electric at ~11 cents per kwh.

Don’t forget that showers are expensive to build and maintain. I would guess that the amount of labor that goes into keeping the showers clean and running is far higher than electricity costs.

This. 100%. In an developed country, the lifetime labour cost to maintain a clean changing room and shower room far exceeds the build cost. To be clear: A different way to think about this issue: As long as cleaning staff are paid living wages, I think this is a good way to expand your economy. Some people want to use commercial gyms; let's make it the source of good jobs.

To make light of the comment: what the hell does someone need to take a 30m shower for?

I personally don't understand the people who wouldn't want to take a 30 minute shower.

So long as the water stays hot and you have the time, it's one of the more relaxing things you can do at home. Baths use way more water, and if you don't live somewhere like Japan, they aren't deep and cool off quickly without a bath warmer. Its also kind of gross to sit in a bath without already showering and getting clean before you get in.

If you have a speaker in the bathroom you can listen to an audio book. Long showers have only gotten better with water proof phones becoming more common. As a kid I would put my Gameboy in a Ziploc bag just so I could stay in longer.

A 30 minute shower uses more water than a bath.

If you don't believe me, try plugging the drain on just a 5 minute shower to see how much it fills up, then extrapolate...

(The shower crosses into more water generally somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes depending on the shower flow and desired bath depth...)

Every shower head is a minor restriction on flow compared to the bath faucet. It may or not be negligible. But a bath drawn for the same faucet runtime will use more water than the same runtime for a shower every time. The crossover in cost happens when the shower uses more water than the bath. That should happen very shortly after the time it takes to fill a bath. At one house, our bath took 40 minutes to fill, another 15-20, and another took under 10.

Only on HN someone wonders what's the cost of a shower, another person actually attempts to calculate that, and then we get into a discussion whether 30 minute showers are a good thing or not. IMO 30 minutes is a bit excessive but I do enjoy longer showers myself ;)

In grad school, many years ago, I would plug the drain and let the tub fill while I showered. I would pull the plug and let the tub drain once the water had cooled. This way my bathroom would warm up a bit. I suppose this might have saved a few cents.

These days you can get passive ‘waste water heat recovery’ systems that sit beneath a bath or shower tray - warming your inbound cold water with your outflow, so you use less new hot water (or have to heat it less).

I'd be curious to know how these systems manage with dissolved soap, partially dissolved skin cells, hair, etc.

> I personally don't understand the people who wouldn't want to take a 30 minute shower.

Are you aware that clean water is a finite resource that we're almost certain to run out of? [1] does that not bother you all?

Even mighty British Columbia with all the rivers, lakes, mountains and snowfall is under drought conditions, right now in winter!

https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-earth/state...

> > I personally don't understand the people who wouldn't want to take a 30 minute shower.

> Are you aware that clean water is a finite resource that we're almost certain to run out of? [1] does that not bother you all? https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/planet-earth/state...

I think a 30 minute shower contributes to a global water shortage in the same way that plastic straws contribute.

The link you’ve provided says 90% of water usage is on the generation of electricity, food, and products.

I think the GP should continue to take 30 minute showers, because even if they stop, even if every person stops, it’ll have a negligible effect on water usage.

Much like plastic straws.

What do you mean it's a finite resource, I take a shower with some water, it gets dumped, cleaned then I can use it again. Does me taking a longer shower just disintegrate the water?

GP did not consider septic tanks either apparently

With unlimited energy, there's pretty much infinite water in oceans to desalinate. Energy and its clean production and storage is the only thing to worry about.

> Are you aware that clean water is a finite resource

It kinda is, when you're drawing it from a spring that will lead to the ocean one way or the other.

It's terrible for your skin.

Agreed, although I don't think this was a problem for me until I was in my 30s or so.

Many years ago, at the end of a fifty mile race, I collected my bag and went to the locker room. When I got in, I guy was leaning against the wall, with the showerhead kind of over his shoulder (this was a junior high school). I undressed very slowly, for I was quite sore from the run. I took what I thought was a long shower, and then dressed very slowly and packed my stuff the same way. As I left the locker room, the guy was still leaning against the wall with water running over him. I didn't blame him.

You ran 50 miles in middle school??!!?

No, I ran 50 miles to middle school, or rather to a middle school. The 2024 JFK Memorial 50 Mile will finish at the Springfield Middle School in Williamsport, Maryland. I presume that it was the same school back then--I don't think Williamsport has the population for two middle schools.

I was 27, about twice the age I was when I finished 8th grade.

Shiiiiiitttttt! 30 minutes is a quick shower to me. Idk but I typically budget about an hour for a shower, then 20 to 30 to get ready. I figure most at the gym are just rinsing though.

Body hair really extends shower time. A lot of body hair does it even more. Add long hair and beards and it's even more.

How so?

More hair means more product, more lathering, and significantly more rinsing. When my hair is short, I can wash it in a few seconds. With my hair below my shoulders, it can take more time to clean than an entire shower took with short hair.

Yeah, but the GP post was talking about body hair, which kind of puzzled me.

Maybe they were (implicitly) talking about shaving their body hair? I dunno - confusing.

second this, it looks insane I can barely endure 3 minutes shower and my average is 40-50 seconds especially when it is -13 C outside

How is that the best? To me the best custumer never even visits the gym, buys everything that is offered, and gives the business donations.

The worst customer is similar to you, but doing it at peak times, while also taking up resources of staff somehow (even if just chatting them up).

Doing it at 430am is their second favorite customer other than someone that doesn't come at all.

The 4:30am customer is the top favourite as they are much more likely to stick around for the long haul. The customer who never comes sounds nice, but they are likely to be a short-lived customer.

Just look at the signs in the gym to see what they hate. Leaving equipment out, and messing up the toilets (apparently someone spits gum in the urinals?) is what annoys the staff at the gym I go to.

> (apparently someone spits gum in the urinals?)

Former janitor here: people do this all the time, everywhere. On the scale of terrible things people do in the restrooms, this one is pretty mild -- but don't do it. Have a thought for the person who cleans up your mess.

>>Finally I must add, all the friends (more like acquaintances) you make at the gym are absolutely crucial to motivate oneself

Yes, but it's personality specific; the absolute worst part of the gym, to me, is "other people". The sweaty, macho, over-enthusiastic bros with specific kind of humour (you can tell me that's not all or even most of them; doesn't matter, my subconsciousness doesn't believe you! :). The stinky changing rooms and people who don't want to cover anything up. The noise and the loudness and the boisterousness and just... people. So many people. Way too many people. Some of them even try to engage me! Make eye contact or talk to me!

I think I'll stay home and try my elliptical again.

SO I guess, you're right, people at the gym ARE motivational :-)

(don't get me wrong - I'm mostly a people person otherwise; I'm an introvert but nobody believes me as I'm fairly outgoing, make small talk easily, smile and listen and engage people. But gym is where I'm at my most vulnerable, least-confident, and I suppose I have my share of traumatic memories of gyms as a scrawny dorky asthmatic nerdy boy. So I definitely, absolutely, completely, positively, desire no social interaction at the gym right now :)

Not to point out the obvious, but most of this is I think just anxiety.

I remember when I first started exercising, I was a fat alcoholic that was usually the youngest person there and had no idea what he was doing. I was very anxious about potentially doing something wrong, or being taunted or judged. I didn’t know how to use a lot of equipment and it took a long time before I even realized kind of “obvious” stuff like you being able to swap out attachments on cable systems. I knew my body language was glaringly displaying low self confidence and anxiety, and was further psyched out by knowing that it was obvious and I couldn’t do anything about it.

As I went to the gym more I became more self confident and also assured through experience that I wasn’t doing anything wrong and nobody would be a dick to me. I mean, people are dicks sometimes, but usually only out of their own selfishness (like wanting to use something you are, or hogging something they’re not use because of fucking supersets), not malice. There’s always a small chance of a bad interaction along those lines every time you go but the anxiety definitely greatly subsides over time.

Thanks for this brutally honest post! We need more of this on HN.

Some advice from a weakling(!): In most gyms where I have worked-out, you can either ask the staff or a super buff lady/dude on how to best use the equipment. Yes, you feel like a complete idiot for about 6 seconds while asking for help. But then, they are so supportive and friendly. It's weird. If you are a tiny nobody at the gym, the super buffs are more than happy to provide advice if you asking respectfully. Note: Do not ask for help when they are in the middle of a set!

EDIT

Big support for going the gym. Your original post sounds like you were going through some big issues.

Oh agree, it's all anxiety and insecurity! It's a catch-22 in that sense :).

You will find that if you go at the times I go, most of these things are not a problem. It's usually only the serious, respectful people who show up at that time. Once I went to the gym around 5pm and OMG, it was the first time ever I felt like why am I here. Never happened again !

And this is why only go to boutique gym where you get personal trainer and whole room full of equipment only for yourself.

I did not know that this kind of arrangement is possible (I used to go only to normal gyms which were overcrowded most of the times). My wife found it near us and we decided to check it, made a reservation, and now, after a year I cannot imagine going back.

Unfortunately it does come with hefty price tag - about 4-5 times bigger than normal gym subscription.

We have 2, one all you can eat 100 euro/month: Packed like a japanese metro. One on a cinema model where you must pick one of their training programs, each with a different trainer and different times ranging from 300 to 550 euro per month. Only sqash is on an hourly rate and never sold out.

Its easy to squeeze out a few extra reps at home by thinking of what it costs. It really helps how expensive they are. Lol

I lived out of my Toyota 4runner for 5 months. I would go to the Planet Fitness in the morning, take a long shower using their soap and hot water, do some exercise, and leave.

Membership was $5 a month (for a 3-year contract.

Now I live in Romania and gym memberships are $50-70 a month but people actually go there

Why would you shower before exercising and not after?

Oh my, this thread is wild... someone else takes 30 minutes or longer showers at the gym and thinks that's totally normal :D

I showered to also wash my hair. Can't work out looking all messy, what would others think?

Bad hair in the gym is a no-go but being at least some amount of sweaty all day isn't?

Fortunately my workouts were short and of the anaerobic nature so I didn't really break into a sweat.

How do you make friends at the gym? I've been going for years and the only gym friends I have are those from outside the gym that learn that I go to the gym.

It's a tricky one, one which you do need to be very patience for.

Most folk will have headphones, most folk are focusing on their routine / program; themselves.

Being a regular is kind of a must, know that the person you wish to strike conversation with is a regular. Find a time when they're not plugged in to their zone and then start with a compliment. Keep it small and lite, everyone likes to be complimented now on their workout now and then.

Further it on if you've noticed that they've completed a set on new weights, extra speeds et cetera. Then the next time you see them at the gym, make a friendly hello.

Over the periods of small talk and rapport you can make larger gestures such as sharing sets, running next to them if it's a treadmill.

Go sit in the sauna or steam room if your gym has one, that’s where I make a lot of friends (or acquaintances really).

100% on the impact of other people. The first gym I used had lots of big muscular men running around saying things like “I wanna do something ignorant [1]”. But when they saw a normy like me doing crunches incorrectly, they might stop to inform me on proper form. And this was a big gym chain.

[1] Ignorant meant painful.

Do you lack the space for a home gym or are you an advanced lifter that would benefit from the specialized machines?

I can probably make some space for a home gym, but like I said earlier part of the motivation going to the gym is to see other people working out and being serious at it. I am no longer an advanced "lifter" because of certain injuries and disorders that were diagnosed but I do LOVE the stairmaster at the gym and it is best for my health problems, and that kind of equipment is not something you can easily keep at home (you need a tall ceiling too), so I do need specialized machines in that regards. As far as weight training is concerned I can probably survive on a home gym.

Generally the more advanced you are as a lifter the less specialised machines are going to benefit you. Machines are there for people who don’t know what lifts to do and how to do them with proper technique.

If you glimpse inside the gym of a professional athlete you’ll generally find a comprehensive set of dumbbells, some Olympic bars + plates and a bench and not much else!

> Machines are there for people who don’t know what lifts to do and how to do them

That’s an overly broad generalization. If you look up pictures of Arnold Schwarzenegger’s home gym, it’s mostly machines.

Sorry but this is not completely correct. Many expert bodybuilders use a variety of machines to train each muscle group.

Power lifters, however, tend to focus on the compound movements and therefore probably need less equipment.

On the other hand, barbells are great until you realize you're missing some critical stabilizer and that is why your shoulder or glute has been hurting for years. Then you would kill for a cable machine.

Personally I think smith machines and cable systems are pretty handy for bodybuilding - mostly because they help you isolate certain muscles in a way you can’t do with barbells and dumbbells. Or they allow you to do things like weighted lunges or shrugs or tricep exercises at high weights with much less risk of injury vs doing them with free weights.

Plenty of examples of elite bodybuilders training with them.

  > Finally I must add, all the friends (more like acquaintances) you make
  > at the gym are absolutely crucial to motivate oneself and also just have
  > a positive social interaction.

Eh, been going to a gym weight room for 10 years and it's damn lonely and demoralizing. I'm sure it's different in tiny one-room Olympic weightlifting gyms or whatever.

I'm not in my 20s anymore and I'm not actually that athletic, so 10 years of looking for a gym buddy have yielded nothing for me. Otherwise, the people I recognize at the gym are either the ones who camp out a piece of equipment or just walk around chatting others up and apparently never lifting anything.

Funny how serious / loner type people often open up when you ask them to help spot your bench press. At least that's been my experience, that moment of them helping you out at your vulnerable time somehow lowers the guard / the friction to chatting

+9000. Asking for a spot on a personal big lift is a huge opening to talk with people. The before and after are a great opportunity to be emotionally vulnerable -- "oh, can I do it?" ... "oh, thanks for the 1kg help on the last rep. I really needed that!"

Work on your war cry!

Seriousness aside, I ask fitness folk online what the point is of a gym. If you are serious about it (they are) surely you buy your own equipment and train in the comfort of your own home?

One said he does have his own equipment and that [while people would deny it] the gym is entirely for social interaction.

I suggest watching, broScienceLife, most of his videos are bad, actually they are all bad.

https://www.youtube.com/@BroScienceLife/videos

What should I suggest to my downstairs neighbors when I do deadlifts?

Less weight, put it down gently? If you are a nerd about it you know that Eccentric contractions build more muscle than concentric.

If I know I'm going to bother my neighbors (with parties for example) I buy them gifts and talk with them about it. Sometimes they just want to party along. Can adapt the schedule etc

Gyms are not forbidden if it makes sense?

I'd be dubious of sweeping claims about what is "crucial" to motivate people in general. I would also consider myself a gymrat in the sense you probably mean. I've been fairly consistent about lifting six days a week for roughly three years now. Time missed isn't down to motivation so much as travel, injury, and illness. I'm more than willing to accept that as a form of loosely principled periodization anyway. Cardio has been somewhat less consistent, but that has been far more down to what I imagined I was capable of than motivation. Now that I know I can do it, I've gotten pretty good about running from 20-40 miles a week or so with variance coming down to injury and illness.

This is all at home. My motivation is I'm an animal in a body that needs to be used and regularly stressed in ways it can adapt to in order to remain closer to peak functionality than degraded, and I don't want to degrade. I had very bad degenerative spine issues in my 30s and my experience living in a less degraded body has been far better than living in a degraded body. I don't feel any need for other people to push me. I work out completely alone in my own garage or on the street. I comment about it here when it comes up as a topic but don't try to be a part of any other web communities devoted to fitness. I don't publicly post progress photos or stats. I keep logs but only as feedback for my own planning.

This isn't down to trying to avoid other people, either. This is largely down to convenience. When I had gym memberships in the past, sometimes I would go and sometimes I would not and quite often the thing keeping me from going was the simple friction of needing to leave the house and get in a car for 20 minutes. As it stands, I didn't have a car for a few years and still very rarely drive thanks to the continuing spinal stiffness in the wake of multiple lumbar fusions. There is quite a bit less friction involved in walking downstairs whenever I happen to have a spare 40 minutes in the day.

I say all of this understanding not everybody works in the same way. Some may need a hard schedule. Some may need a coach or social factor. Some may do better with strict separation of home as a place to relax and somewhere else as a place to push bodily function. Some may need their garage for cars. Many are not going to have thousands of dollars to blow on equipment but can easily afford a monthly subscription to use equipment shared with others.

I'm only intending to point out there are many ways to make this work and to push language on the web away from saying things are "absolutely crucial to motivate oneself" because they worked for you personally. It was absolutely crucial to you. Something entirely different was absolutely crucial to me. What is absolutely crucial to some randomly selected other person who is neither of us I will not claim to know. If this is something you care about, try everything. Find what works for you.

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