Hacker News Reader

Comment by Dalewyn | Hacker News Reader

I wholeheartedly agree and am also going to bring another thing up that ICE cars have but EVs don't regarding range:

Peace of mind.

When we're driving an ICE car, we simply don't care about the range. We don't think about it; it's not a concern. That peace of mind is fucking priceless, especially if one's life is already busy with far more pressing concerns.

In an EV we have to constantly keep an eye on that battery level, on that Miles Remaining counter. We have to micromanage the A/C and other things that consume power. That is mentally draining, and for what? It's something we don't have to care about in an ICE car.

I drove an EV, I constantly worried about the range. Range was constantly on my mind, even when I wasn't driving the fucking thing. It was mentally fucking exhausting. Sincerely: No thanks.

I'll happily pay the $50~70 bucks at the gas station to fill up my car in a few minutes and be at peace. It easily beats paying almost nothing charging overnight and then worrying if I can come back home when I start another day.

View on HN

I've not driven an EV, so I can't speak to that. But I have been in an ICE car that has run out of petrol (it was truly sitcom-worthy, with the infamous line "Don't worry, it always shows empty when it's got a 1/4 of a tank left" about a minute before the engine died), and this wasn't that far out from Sydney, and there are signs around here (east coast of AU) with how many km/minutes the next fuel stop is after the current one, so I'm not convinced that EV range concerns can't be managed in a similar way.

They're usually managed even better. (Some) EVs are pretty good at estimating actual range and can automatically tell the driver where the nearest charging points are.

The really good ones can also check if there are free slots in the chargers and optimise accordingly.

You never* run out of fuel twice though.

*hyperbole

Eh, given the same set of parameters, I have trouble believing a driver who let an ICE car get that low on petrol would've taken the steps necessary to manage the battery charge for that trip.

Also, the fuel consumption of an ICE is going to be much more consistent and predictable especially later in it's service life.

The missing context (which I skipped) was that they had two identical(ish, I couldn't tell the difference, they were the same model though) cars, and the other one did have that behaviour (having witnessed it), I suspect the cause was confusion about which car the different members of the family were using that day. It was also on the way back (so no-one was that stressed about it), so waiting to get back to Sydney would have given much cheaper petrol (NRMA came and gave us enough to get back out of the mountains after 30m).

I think this depends a lot on the EV infrastructure around you.

Driving an EV in the SF Bay Area is super convenient -- I know all the chargers off the top of my head and maintaining enough range is second nature to me now. I regularly road trip my Model 3 as well without any issues. I don't even look at the miles, just battery %.

I recently got an ICE car for fun on the weekends and thinking about gas, oil changes, preventative maintenance, and repairs has been way more stressful than charging.

Give the infrastructure a few years to catch up. Now that NACS has taken over in the US, things will only get better.

Infrastructure is there, people just have a fixed notion of what the infrastructure looks like.

Even our least populated states are littered with fast chargers alone highways and interstates.

When I bought my model 3 in 2018, infrastructure was good enough in Idaho the meet my needs, though there were a few tight gaps.

Now in 2024 the picture has dramatically changed with every route having excess charge capacity and options.

Those down on EVs are having to come up with ever more convoluted scenarios and routes to justify why they aren't feasible. I literally saw one where a person posited they needed to drive from Edmonton to Winnipeg Canada every day during the winter and because an EV is a bad fit for that situation it's a bad fit for everyone.

I live in super rural South New Jersey. Even here where I don't see many tesla there are plenty of super chargers.

How can you have peace of mind whilst burning the only inhabitable planet for life as we know it?

If you've been raised in a deeply individualistic culture, the collective well-being doesn't affect your peace of mind. And if you can afford to choose to own an EV, you and your descendants will likely be amongst the least impacted by climate change, migrations, and supply chain disruptions.

Hah, so true. If you give up on your ICE now in one of the western democracies, it will be sold as a used car in your country first and continue being driven around by someone poorer, then eventually be shipped to Asia and be driven around there by even poorer people until it eventually goes to Africa and and be driven until it finally gives out. Getting a new EV and dumping the ICE won't change much on that in the short term.

So what I want to say is, that poor people have better things to worry about than EVs and sustainability, like getting through the day with food on their plate and maybe a roof over their head. While they will be the most impacted, they can afford to care about it the least.

Also, EVs right now just shift the problem around until we manage to produce electricity from renewable sources, which is still some way off, especially in the poor places that will drive the least efficient ICEs while they last.

In France we have a "bonus for scrapyard" to avoid that [1]. You get an extra discount if you prove that the old car you're replacing is going to be removed from the road.

I don't think it's well thought through given how broken the rating of cars is, but that's a step in the right direction I guess.

> Also, EVs right now just shift the problem around until we manage to produce electricity from renewable sources

Until we manage to actually reduce the amount of cars. The solution for transportation is quite clearly less and smaller vehicles, all EVs.

[1] https://www.economie.gouv.fr/particuliers/prime-conversion

If you are broke you can buy a normal car for $1000 or less, that can get you to work and back home. You can't afford to live where you can take public transit or a bicycle to work. Electric is simply not an option for the majority of people, it is a luxury. Until a worker can get an electric car for a couple of thousands, no scrapyard bonus will make any difference whatsoever. It's just more tax money subsidies for rich people.

>Until we manage to actually reduce the amount of cars. The solution for transportation is quite clearly less and smaller vehicles, all EVs.

That's called a motorcycle, although they're not electric. There's a few hundred million of them already in the world, and greater adaption of motorcycles where possible would be incredible for reduced traffic and reduced pollution. On top of that they are cheap, fuel efficient and fun to ride. But nobody will listen to the solution, because there is too much money to be made from the problem.

Motorcycles pollute far more than cars per unit of distance driven.

And I’m talking about gas cars.

And cars carry more people.

The fact that motorcycles use less gas has absolutely no connection to how much pollution they produce, which is a lot.

Good to know, I had no idea of that! But it seems to be fixed with a cat without too much downside in performance. From my quick research, it seems that most modern motorcycles do have cats, and they don't add very much to the price of the vehicle.

Cars carry more people, and more stuff. And it protects you from the weather. But if you're just transporting yourself or yourself and a passenger, the motorcycle can be a good option many times.

Thanks, good to know they have “cats” too, didn’t know that. Hopefully it helps a lot. For the record, I assume what I’ve heard about motorcycles does not account for that.

> Electric is simply not an option for the majority of people, it is a luxury. Until a worker can get an electric car for a couple of thousands, no scrapyard bonus will make any difference whatsoever. It's just more tax money subsidies for rich people.

Note that "the majority of people" don't have a car, they have 2-wheeled vehicle at best. [1] I'm not conflating "electric vehicles" with "electric cars".

> That's called a motorcycle, although they're not electric.

No shit.

> There's a few hundred million of them already in the world, and greater adaption of motorcycles where possible would be incredible for reduced traffic and reduced pollution. On top of that they are cheap, fuel efficient and fun to ride. But nobody will listen to the solution, because there is a too much money to be made from the problem.

Fully agree, even though the maximum amount of public transportation is in my opinion desirable in areas that permit it.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/04/16/car-bike-...

> I'm not conflating "electric vehicles" with "electric cars".

My mistake!

To add a bit more to the discussion. Larger adaption of motorcycles instead of cars in cities can also reduce the pollution from public transport. Nothing spews more exhaust than a bus stuck in traffic. Motorcycles are also a good complement to public transit, since you can get to a station or terminal that is far away on your motorcycle and easily park there. Car parking needs much more space. In many cases it is better to get to a terminal that has express public transport by your own means, so that you don't have to live by the local bus schedule and wait for the slow route to the terminal.

Good point for the buses, I wonder which is more energy-efficient in-between putting all passengers in a battery-electric bus or on electric scooters.

The main advantage I see to electric motorcycles is that you barely need to change anything in most car-dependant areas to start mass adoption. They are fast enough for you to not feel unsafe next to cars at a red light, and can go quite far on a single charge.

I've been raving about Taiwan's Gogoros for a while, but still, too many motorcycles is a big safety hazard. Electric bicycles are much better in that regard, muscle ones even more.

I think both ICE and electric motorcycles will be more energy-efficient than both ICE buses and electric buses. But not everybody can ride a motorcycle, so my thought is that if more car drivers became motorcycle riders, then traffic would flow much better and the bus wouldn't get stuck in the first place.

It would also save a lot of money on infrastructure, if traffic could be improved without having to build larger and larger highways.

As for electric and muscle bicycles, I think they have their time and place. There's nothing wrong with people combining all methods of transportation in their life, depending on circumstances and weather. Car + MC + Bicycle could be in everybody's garage.

I wouldn't consider many motorcycles a safety hazard. It's mostly people riding like lunatics. And safety gear has become better recently, with airbag clothes. At least bikers only hurt themselves in an accident. In my experience motorcycles are safer than electric bicycles, unless you're in a place with very good bicycle infrastructure. Motorcycles can accelerate out of dangerous situations and have better manoeuvrability than large-wheeled bicycles.

EVs powered even by coal pollute less than gas cars, due to superior drivetrain efficiency. So this “long tailpipe” concept you allude to is a myth.

> If you've been raised in a deeply individualistic culture, the collective well-being doesn't affect your peace of mind.

I don't know about that. It certainly affects mine. I may not be representative of the average person in my culture, but I was a product of my culture regardless.

As an aside, you can get a Model 3 for less than a Toyota Corolla now in many states so the “if you can afford an EV” perspective is starting to lose its edge. However I still agree with your overall point.

Tragedy of the commons. Your decision to abandon ICE car will not change anything in the grand scheme of things besides inconveniencing you so long as other people are allowed to use ICE cars and a myriad of other fossil fuel based conveniences.

Until enough people abandon them and gas stations stop selling gas, and range anxiety becomes a thing for ICE vehicles.

If you're not using a train you're burning the only inhabitable planet as well. So stop feeling superior to others while doing the same crap they all do.

It brings peace of mind, it seems.

Don't EV cars calculate all that for you and tell you where to stop to charge up again?

My 10 year old EV has a button on the steering wheel that will show all the chargers it knows about within range.

If planning a route using the built in satnav it will say "you won't make it, add a charging stop?"

But there's so many chargers I don't even bother planning.

I’m afraid these calculations are more tuned to sweetheart deals the car manufacturer has with the infrastructure owner than to my best interests.

Tesla will 100% route to Tesla chargers, which is what you want to use right now. Maybe in 5 years it will be worth thinking about other brands.

Only Tesla does that.

That is false.

This integration didn’t exist when the EV versions were just electrified versions of ICE cars.

This changed with the upcoming of car by traditional automakers that were designed to be an BEV first. I’ve used the route planning in a Kia EV as well as a VW EV without any issues. You can plan your route with charging points, select the desired remaining capacity, select the kind of charging you want, etc. AFAIK Porsche offers the same features too

My Renault Megane E-tech will tell me the battery % when I reach my destination, and will ask me to add a charging stop on the way if I won't make it. My previous BMW i3 did the same.

That seems weird.

Edit: Just looked up Porsche and they have it too. They call it "Intelligent range optimiser". Can't be asked to check more brands.

Range anxiety is a short term condition, you get over it after surprisingly quickly. Then you just enjoy driving as normal. Managing charging is easy once you get used to it (in Europe, at least). Actual owners of modern EVs do not micromanage like you claim, you just don't need to.

Personally I prefer paying almost nothing (in fuel) for a nicer drive with far less maintenance worries.

> Range anxiety is a short term condition, you get over it after surprisingly quickly.

My partner has had a series of EVs for 10 years now.

Just a few weeks ago dropped me off at the airport (~100 mile roundtrip) and started planning for it days it advance. How much needed to driver on day N-2, N-1, how much charge would be left. Then spent the morning of the trip sipping coffee at Whole Foods to bring the charge up to %100 (normally limited to %80). Then spent the whole trip hyperfocused on the mileage remaining, worried about getting home.

While the trip is quite a bit shorter than the advertised range, with hilly terrain it's always uncertain what the real world mileage ends up being.

It all seemed very exhausting. So I guess it takes more than a decade to get over range anxiety.

If you are hitting 100 miles range, then you do indeed have such a small range you need to hyperfocus. A modern Y or 3 will always do 200 miles without a threat. I charge to 70%, and I wouldn't even top up before doing a 100 mile rountrip.

Which goes back to.. more range REALLY DOES help. 100 vs 200 miles range is game cahnging. 200 to 300 would be huge for road trips. 400, 500, starts to hit some diminishing but non-zero returns.

> Range anxiety is a short term condition

> I prefer paying almost nothing (in fuel)

Both of these look like very dependent on the personal situation. In my case I never really got over the winter induced anxiety (the range dropped severely for my expectations), combined with the lack of home charger, combined with high electricity costs, combined with the fact that I can walk, cycle, or take public transport for most of my needs. I eventually returned to a cheap, small, ICE car that I use occasionally but serves for peace of mind (it's there!) and makes me just as comfortable as an EV makes you. I wouldn't recommend to you a bicycle or even a small car because it's very important not to generalize to others based on my needs.

Did you have a heat pump? Did you have a car with 300 miles of summer range? The situation these days is far better than what it was but the infrastructure is still catching up to support those without home charging. That does make it more effort, I do not deny (I did it for a bit).

Of course all transport ownership is dependent on personal situation. That really goes without saying, just look out the window! I didn't recommend anything, to do so would be daft.

I simply do not believe range anxiety is still the problem it once was.

> The situation these days

I gave it up and switched back in November 2022. While I always keep my options open and an eye out for what makes sense for me, I haven't seen any signs that the situation is radically different in general. It certainly hasn't changed for me personally.

> I simply do not believe range anxiety is still the problem it once was.

Maybe but that says very little. If your waiter told they don't believe the soup contains anywhere near the amount of spit it once did you wouldn't feel encouraged. I'm happy if the situation is improving and if I still care about owning a car in the future I'll surely reassess if that critical threshold was reached. Anything short of that will get a "very good, keep up the good work" but not my money.

I hope you do try again because the soup can be spit free, cheaper and tastes better. You do need to pick the right flavour, though.

Agreed. I've driven an EV for over 4 years and range anxiety vanished after the first few months. I live in a city with good charging options, but often have to take longer road trips to see aging parents who live in a very rural area with zero fast chargers for miles around. Yes, I need to do a top-up charge on the way down because I know I can't charge when I get there, but I'd likely have to do that in an ICE car because there are no petrol stations near them either!

I pay about 15% of what I would have previously paid for diesel, and the only maintenance I've had to do was a new tyre after running over a nail.

This will get better as the charging network gets built out more. And the experience is completely stress free in some cars with a good network today.

Hah, if only you've seen me in my ICE car. Plenty of hoping and praying the glimmering fuel light doesn't die out and that I'll make it to the fuel station. No peace mind of mind.

Which one did you drive?

When my ICE car is getting low on fuel, which happens quite often because the tank isn't that big and I tend to avoid filling up when the prices are high (they vary a lot here), I also have to micromanage the A/C and anything else, because they consume just as much energy as they do in an EV car, and that comes from the gasoline. It's most definitely not something I "don't have to care about". It's actually more of a concern because when my car is low on fuel it's very hard to know exactly how much is left - is it half a liter, two, or three? There are way fewer fueling stations than in the past, so getting there also takes fuel. At least with an EV I could have charged at home or at work or at the shopping mall.. well, I'll stay with my ICE car for a while more but that's because there are other good things about it which aren't yet available for EVs, but I do wish it was an EV.

This is purely your behaviour though, the more general case is that most people dont have to micromanage their ICE vehicles or be concerned about range. Especially in the case where they are doing extended driving trips where even fuel can be scarce jerry cans are easy enough to pack.

But my point was that A/C and all electric appliances also affect fuel consumption of ICE cars, and if, for any reason, you're low on fuel you have to take that as much into consideration as with an EV car (except that it's often much harder to gauge how much you have left, with an ICE car).

Of course the AC affects range on ICE cars, but nobody cares about that because there's always a gas station around the corner or at the next exit.

You are the exception. That's what all the replies are trying to tell you

That's probably true in the US. Not around here, in a semi-populated region of Europe. It's far shorter to somewhere to charge than it is to a gas station. There used to be lots of them, but they started to disappear even before EVs were a thing. For me the nearest one is quite a bit away, through a toll booth even.

If you provided that context, you would not have gotten such incredulous replies. Btw the US isn't special. I'm in India right now and there's a petrol station around every corner just like there's a gas station around every corner back home

I assure you that this is not normal behavior. Furthermore, why would you consider paying more ($10k to $20K more!)[0] for an EV if you're trying to time the market on gas prices and worried about spending a few cents on running the A/C?

0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38864408

That was not my point at all, the point was that, unlike what was implied in what I commented on, usage of A/C and appliances don't matter for ICE cars, which is not at all true. Energy use is just as for EV cars and has to be taken into consideration. In any case, pricing is different in various places - I own an ICE car, and I have always bought low cost, used cars. That place doesn't currently exist in the EV market.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com