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IDF soldiers should never do those things, and the IDF has multiple times said as much - and disciplined soldiers who did similar. (I don't know of this specific case, I think, but I've seen other very terrible displays - which most Israelis condemn and which are against the IDF's code.)
> And I am not criticizing Israel. I am criticizing Israeli Nazis, which happen to be in power. If you equate the two, that is your thing.
Thank you for saying so.
That said, let's be clear - I hate the current Israeli government and am one of the many people who have protested them for the last year. I wouldn't call them Nazis, that's going too far - but some of them are almost as bad, and a few have the rhetoric of Nazis, no question.
That said, the IDF isn't the Israeli government. The majority of soldiers are basically regular Israelis put into a terrible situation that they never wanted to be in. And the majority of the country, while hating the current government, supports this war.
> So, how do we ensure the IDF doesn't murder more journalists and civilians? Level Israel? I mean, how else could you be 100.00% sure, right?
I never said let's be 100% sure. I asked a question. A real question that all Israelis are asking. If Mexico had invaded the US and killed a thousand citizens, it would be completely legitimate to ask how the US would make sure this didn't happen again. If this was followed by Mexico continuing to shoot rockets at the US for 3 months, while promising to invade again, I think it would be legitimate to ask what the US should do.
You haven't said what you think should be done in this situation, and I'm still curious. And no, I don't need 100% certainty that Hamas doesn't do this again, but given what they say, I am 100% certain that it will happen again if Israel does nothing.
> Just take these for starters, and spare me all that hand wringing about being forced into smugly destroying civilian infrastructure. It doesn't even pass the smell test.
You've clearly made up your mind. I'd only say that your amount of certainty does not seem related to what any experts on the matter say about the type of operation that is underway. It is very similar in many ways to other operations carried out by e.g. the US against ISIS (though has some other complications).
If you're starting out from the assumption that of course the IDF wants to destroy civilian buildings, OK, nothing I can do to change your mind. But there are reasons for most bombings, and they're usually clear and explainable. The fact that you don't even entertain this idea is... well, not a good way to approach things.
> But seriously, it's not that I "care" so much about the topic, I simply know to much for it being worth your time to even try this on me.
Tr "try" this on you? I have to live this. I'm the one who lives knowing that people all around the world are convinced my country is committing genocide, despite it being wrong (you never answered anything of what I said about this, btw). I'm the one who lived through a week of not knowing if a multi-front war is about to start, which could endanger my life. I'm the who spent months explaining to my kids why they have to run daily to bomb shelters as we were being bombed.
And no one I've talked to has yet given me a good answer for what we should be doing instead
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R49v3K29mM
This was a great video - I haven't seen it. For the record, I agree with most of it. It doesn't really offer any other solutions either though.
> I wouldn't call them Nazis, that's going too far - but some of them are almost as bad, and a few have the rhetoric of Nazis, no question.
I would also call Hamas or other religious fanatics who murder "Nazis" in that sense. It's a very sloppy, but also deliberate use of the word. The question to me aren't the nuances, the differences, but the similarities.
> If Mexico had invaded the US and killed a thousand citizens, it would be completely legitimate to ask how the US would make sure this didn't happen again.
Not by committing an even bigger atrocity. Because if 1000 Israelis warrant murdering 10000 Palestinians, that means that in turn warrants murdering 100000 Israelis, then 1 million Palestinians, then all of Israel, then random pogroms against Muslims all over the world, then against Jews, until we're out of people to murder to prevent murder.
And "Gaza" didn't invade Israel. Hamas terrorists did.
How about looking into how one of the most hawkishly watched, tiniest strip of border in the whole world could be nilly-willy breached like that? I don't mean this as victim blaming, but you always first look at the things you do control.
> I am 100% certain that it will happen again if Israel does nothing.
And reducing Gaza to rubble and creating a unfathomable humanitarian crisis is going to lessen resentment? Good plan. How about dismantling the settlements? But can't give in to terrorists, can you, and do the thing you should have been doing in the first place if you had any decency. That's impossible to ask of Israelis. Instead, we just ask people in Gaza to die, quietly. Because "they started it" and "we are having our hand forced every step of the way".
> If you're starting out from the assumption that of course the IDF wants to destroy civilian buildings, OK, nothing I can do to change your mind.
I started with no assumption either way. That's what I have seen, in enough permutations.
> It is very similar in many ways to other operations carried out by e.g. the US against ISIS
Blowing up a supreme court building after posing for selfies in it? Nah.
> I have to live this. I'm the one who lives knowing that people all around the world are convinced my country is committing genocide
Have to live what? An expansionist policy rather than respecting international law? No, that's a choice. I mean not your personal choice, but since you keep talking about $country this and $country that... Israel didn't have to go down this path, and it doesn't have to continue down it.
Let me be very clear, killing 1000 Israelis doesn't "warrant" killing a single Palestinian. Revenge killing is not moral, period. If Hamas were to surrender, there'd be no legitimate reason to kill anyone, neither civilian nor militant.
The valid reason to wage war is to prevent someone from killing you. In this case, Hamas has killed invaded, killed civilians, shot rockets, and promised to do it again. It is a valid reason to go to war with them. It is not a valid reason to ever target civilians - but that doesn't mean that civilians won't tragically be killed.
> And "Gaza" didn't invade Israel. Hamas terrorists did.
Hamas is the government of Gaza. It is Hamas that has embedded themselves into the civilian population in such a way as to prevent separating them.
Again, you keep not answering my question - what do you think Israel should do? Should it just not try to defeat Hamas? Should it do it differently (and in that case, what can Israel do instead?)
> And reducing Gaza to rubble and creating a unfathomable humanitarian crisis is going to lessen resentment? Good plan. How about dismantling the settlements? But can't give in to terrorists, can you, and do the thing you should have been doing in the first place if you had any decency. That's impossible to ask of Israelis. Instead, we just ask people in Gaza to die, quietly. Because "they started it" and "we are having our hand forced every step of the way".
I'm not sure why you keep suggesting that all of Israel is some morally corrupt block or something. I hate the settlements and think that it's a huge moral failure on the part of Israel that it hasn't dismantled them already. Many if not most Israelis oppose the settlements (usually).
Many also feel that the settlements are the only defense against what happened near Gaza happening everywhere else that borders the West Bank. I don't think they're right, but it's hard to blame them given what happened.
As for reducing Gaza to rubble - I wish there was another way. But I think that given Hamas's stated goals, the only chance for security and the only chance for peace is for Hamas to be out of the picture. I don't see how that can be achieved otherwise. Israel isn't all-powerful, and it's predictably acting just like every other western country given this type of urban warfare. (You seemed to argue against this, but just look at the damage caused in e.g. Mosul.)
> How about looking into how one of the most hawkishly watched, tiniest strip of border in the whole world could be nilly-willy breached like that? I don't mean this as victim blaming, but you always first look at the things you do control.
Believe me, Israel is intensely interested in this question. And by all current measures, our current government is incredibly unpopular for this reason (among many others).